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June 12, 2015 9:30 am  #21


Re: John's Military standing

Vhanja wrote:

My point was more this: I know that sometimes they delibarately misdirect the fans. And this can very easily be used as we want it. If they say something we agree with, we use it as "evidence" to support our cause. If they say something we disagree with, we use the "But they always lie"-card. 

 
That's why I hardly argue with what they say, not even if it fits with my view. (Take the "gang show" comment for example)


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June 12, 2015 9:34 am  #22


Re: John's Military standing

OT: The writers are contradicting themselves once in every half an hour, so what?
(Back to my cave)


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June 12, 2015 9:34 am  #23


Re: John's Military standing

Harriet wrote:

I was and am on topic. But I couldn't figure out what your opinion is. Got it now and agree.

Yeah, sorry the OT comment was for me and mrshouse as we started to stray off a bit.

I can see that it might have been a bit confusing what my opinion was. I shared the Wellingtonmetas because they gave a lot of interesting details about how it works for a UK GP to be in the army (for those who might be interested in that), and even though she at first didn't think he was an army doctor, she amended her meta when John confirmed in the show that he was. So I thought it was interesting to see a UK doctor commenting on how he could have been an army doctor and how his work in Afghanistan would have been.


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June 12, 2015 9:39 am  #24


Re: John's Military standing

I believe that he was an "army doctor" as this is what we are told in the show and there's no good logical reason to believe they would be purposefully misdirecting us by telling us one thing when they mean another, and if he was trained at Bart's that's definitely the right place.

HOWEVER, I also believe that some of the military aspects of the show are a bit iffy, in the same way the science aspects are a bit iffy. I think it's just a case of them getting it wrong and us eagle eyed fans noticing rather than anything else.


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June 12, 2015 9:42 am  #25


Re: John's Military standing

For example, someone mentioned earlier that his flashbacks show front line fighting.

It would also be rather hard, in this age of modern warfare and the way army doctors operate out in Afghanistan, for him to actually get shot. He wouldn't be leaving the base. He would just be working in a hospital dealing with the patients as they came in.

There are other positions within the blanket term of the RAMC that involve frontline fighting, but they aren't officer positions.


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June 13, 2015 1:35 pm  #26


Re: John's Military standing

Exactly. In case of doubt I don't go with what BBC (or anybody else involved with the show) claim "behind the scenes" (in commentaries, on web sites), but with what I see in the show and know from independet sources. I admit that I simply assume that Wellingtongoose a) knows what she (?) is talking about and b) is telling the truth as she knows it, but my knowledge of Camp Bastion comes from the book "Medic" (John Nichol & Tony Rennel), which I consider reliable. And it tells me that an army surgeon would probably rather have nightmares about cut-off body parts than about front-line fighting.

I see in the show a guy who has nightmares about infantry action out in the field (and not behind hesco walls in a camp). A guy who is an exceptionally good shot - something that's not probable or necessary for a doctor - and who has no qualms about using that skill to actually murder somebody. I see Dr. John Watson in London very clearly working as a GP and Wellingtongoose tells me that there is no way doctor who specialized as a surgeon can work as a GP without re-training for years. (John takes the job with Sarah in the second episode of the first season).

And then Major Sholto shows up, a man who gets death threats for leading troops into battle and getting them killed - clearly he's not a medical officer. But he was John's commander in Afghanistan.

These are the facts of the case and they simply don't fit with John Watson being an army surgeon in Camp Bastion.

I'll amend my previous statement, however: I had forgotten Wellingtongoose's theory that John might have joined the army twice - once as a doctor (or to become a doctor) and then, after his time was up, a second time to become an infantry officer ("As one doctor once said to me - you can only do this job for so long before you just need to go out and shoot something." - http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/30681523063/semantics2)

The line "A doctor and a soldier but not an army doctor" has stuck in my memory from Kizzia's series (http://archiveofourown.org/series/160646). Btw, Kizzia has also written a wonderful meta on John's gun, the SIG Sauer P226 (http://archiveofourown.org/works/1058689) - NOT a Browning as Moriarty thinks and I've read in several fanfics.

The point I'm trying to make - and I'll stick to it: When Captain John Watson was in Afghanistan, he was there as an infantry captain, NOT as a doctor.

Last edited by Kittyhawk (June 13, 2015 1:39 pm)

 

June 13, 2015 3:08 pm  #27


Re: John's Military standing

But wasn't it stated that John himself confirmed in the show that he was an army doctor?


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June 13, 2015 4:29 pm  #28


Re: John's Military standing

Which he would have been if we go with him joining the army twice - first as a doctor, then as a soldier.

The way I see it there are two possibilities: Either we tweak things as suggested by Wellingtongoose - the result is not 100 % (there's still John's "I had bad days" when Sherlock shouts, half-strangled "You were a doctor"), but at least makes for a reasonably coherent in-universe explanation. And it offers lots of exciting story possibilities...

Or we accept that Moftiss don't know the first thing about either medical careers or the army, and that they can't be bothered to find out but prefer to write nonsense, which indicates for me a stunning disrespect for doctors, armed forces and the audience. I mean, Dr. Watson's career is not a minor point like the difference between alpaca and Icelandic wool or what clostridium botulinum looks like. It's the background of one of the show's main characters - doesn't it deserve a bit of care?

How would you explain the above-listed inconsistencies? For example, how and when would Major Sholto have commanded John?

Last edited by Kittyhawk (June 13, 2015 4:37 pm)

 

June 13, 2015 4:34 pm  #29


Re: John's Military standing

To be honest, I don't think they thought it all the way through. I might be wrong, of course, but I don't think they added too much research into John's backstory. They made him join the "Fifth Northumberland Fusiliers" as a nod to canon, even though that doesn't exist anymore. Major Sholto was added, I think, as a parallell to Sherlock. 

The show wasn't made for the fans like us who spend three years analyzing every detail of it. It was made for those who see it once or twice and think it's awesome. If you spend too much time analyzing something, you will get to the point where you spend more time than was ever intended from the creators. And then you will always end up disappointment.

Sherlock is a well-written show. But it's entertainment, not made to withstand three years of minute analyzises and metas.


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June 13, 2015 4:44 pm  #30


Re: John's Military standing

I agree. And as much fun as analysing may be, in the end it may spoil the fun if you just keep looking for inconsistencies and are not willing to suspend your disbelief. It is not a documentary but fiction, they are storytellers. And I am fine with that. 
 


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June 13, 2015 4:50 pm  #31


Re: John's Military standing

You've hit the nail on the head, Vhanja! As a classic tv series, 20 x 45 minutes, one episode every week and reruns between seasons the show would be perfectly acceptable as it is (I never felt any need to dissect every scene of Dr. House). But now the show is movie format, 90 minutes,  new movies are few and far between and the fanbase is big and active (which will keep the show alive for a long time, hopefully). So I feel the show deserves at least some of the care that's normally spent on films - more care than it has gotten so far from its creators.

Alternatively we can stop analyzing it and discussing our findings - but where would be the fun in that?

(Btw, I was stuck by a long list of impossibilities/errors upon first viewing each episode - some of them have even been explained away in the meantime... And others discovered...)

 

June 13, 2015 4:58 pm  #32


Re: John's Military standing

Strangely enough, I have always found the show to be made with very much love and care. Proof of which are - apart from its popularity with the audience - the many awards, also in the technical categories, it has won. Therefore I cannot share your views on lack of care on the side of the creators.. 


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"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

June 13, 2015 5:04 pm  #33


Re: John's Military standing

Slightly OT, but when it comes to research and care - as a dog trainer and dog instructor who specializes in scent work/nosework I was MIGHTILY impressed with ACD's details of dog tracking in "The Sign of Four". All the details were true, and is exactly how (some forms of) tracking works to this day. I was impressed.


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June 13, 2015 5:49 pm  #34


Re: John's Military standing

The issue I have with the army doctor AND soldier story is that it's quite an unusual route - I think I'd like it made more explicit in the show if that's what we're meant to think.   It does seem to be the only route that fits well, though. 

I remember from interviews that (paraphrasing) Benedict likes to have a backstory, but Steven Moffat doesn't.    So I do think it's possible that "army doctor" was enough for him, and he didn't really think through the details, except when they're relevant to John as he's writing him.  And I think there are some "mistakes" which he happily admits in the commentaries.

The war flashbacks always feel a bit like footage, rather than as if John was actually there (or perhaps as if he was filming it.  I don't recognise him in the shots, although I could be missing him.  If he's actually one of the soldiers then that would confirm his role - unless he's fantasising?).  Maybe that's deliberate because they're dreams (they wake John up), but it has a different feel to say, Sherlock's mind palace scene in HLV which is also a sort of dream, but you feel that he's actually there and you're there with him.   Or even the half-asleep sequence with Irene and the hiker.  I don't have a particular point, but just saying that's what it feels like to me.   (Also, what happens in the sequence we're shown isn't clear: it's not quite as awful as you would expect.  It reminds me of one of those popular console war games, rather than showing the horrors of war.  Then later we hear that John misses the fighting rather than finding it a traumatic memory.  It's unlikely, but I wonder if it's possible that he was an army doctor who did see some deaths and injuries but who secretly fantasised about being a front line fighter?).

Anyway, I think it's fun to discuss all the details! 

 

June 13, 2015 5:50 pm  #35


Re: John's Military standing

John is not in the footage as it was taken from a documentary. 

(I also have issues with the whole "John dreams about the horror of war but cries because he misses it"-line of thinking. I just don't believe it).


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June 13, 2015 6:09 pm  #36


Re: John's Military standing

He doesn't actually wake up crying, though.   He starts crying afterwards (perhaps when he realises it's a dream, and he's in his lonely room).  And I think it's confirmed when he talks to Sherlock and Mycroft, though.  Sherlock asks him if he saw injuries and violent deaths, then asks if he wants to see some more.  John's answer is "God, yes!".  Violent deaths aren't something he's trying to escape.  Maybe the gunshot bothers him, but then he chooses to carry a gun.

Then there's Mycroft, who's pretty perceptive, with that little speech about walking with Sherlock Holmes being like the battlefield (if John was traumatised by the battlefield, why would he be so drawn towards Sherlock?).  "You're not haunted by the war, Dr Watson ... you miss it". 

Not that you have to believe it of course, but it fits together quite well for me, and maybe gives another view on John's backstory.   Although if I go by your interpretation and assume that John is traumatised by the war, I wonder if it's possible that it was the other way round - that he enlisted straight from school, became a captain under Sholto, left, went to medical school then re-enlisted and worked as a GP thinking he'd escape the horrors, but was sent to Afghanistan and was closer to the action than he'd hoped, and ended up getting injured?  Although that probably doesn't fit with the CV, and perhaps not the timng with Sholto, and then it might be odd that he was using Captain as a title rather than whatever he'd be as a GP (Major?).

 

June 13, 2015 6:18 pm  #37


Re: John's Military standing

In a way it does fit very well. But in another way it doesn't. He might miss the danger and the adrenaline, but I highly doubt he misses the violence and the horror. He is shown many times showing empathy and sadness towards the victims he and Sherlock comes across, and reacts badly about Sherlock not doing the same. 

So if he doesn't have PTSD, why does he get the psychosomatic limp? And the tremor in the left hand? And keeps clenching and unclenching that hand whenever he's under stress (great touch by Martin, btw).


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June 13, 2015 6:59 pm  #38


Re: John's Military standing

I suppose I need to elaborate on my above statement: I object to the writing, as in: plot logic, characters' behaviour, reality-compliance (assuming the show is supposed to play on planet earth and not in a parallel universe). I am very much impressed by the actors, camera work, special effects, costumes - I completely understand all these awards! I can even somehow understand the one for best writing for ASIB - the episode is so much fun that it took me ages to realize that the plot doesn't make all that much sense!

What I cannot understand is that Wellingtongoose presented a perfectly logical way (okay, it's unusual - but John is an unusual person, isn't he?) to make a character's background reality-compliant - and you don't jump at the opportunity! (Of course it's not made explicit in the show - Mofftiss don't care what we think, they obviously don't care about John's background and whether what we see in the show fits what soldiers and doctors actually do in Afghanistan.)

As for the PTSD: I kow very little of it, but the big problem seems to be the transition from war back to normal, civilian life. It's calles post traumatic stress syndrome, after all. I don't think the problems can be staved off indefinitely by simply not making the transition and staying in war, but it might work for a while. Or not - is shooting the cabbie really normal civilian behaviour? (Actually, no, even owning the gun is not "normal" in GB)

Btw, the footage used for John's nightmare was filmed by Ben Anderson for the BBC in Afghanistan (i. e., it's the real thing - hopefully, at least it's being presented as the real thing) - and you can find it on YouTube by searching for Ben Anderson Afghanistan. I have the info from Kizzia's comment on Johnny Get Your Gun.

 

June 13, 2015 9:29 pm  #39


Re: John's Military standing

Vhanja wrote:

In a way it does fit very well. But in another way it doesn't. He might miss the danger and the adrenaline, but I highly doubt he misses the violence and the horror. He is shown many times showing empathy and sadness towards the victims he and Sherlock comes across, and reacts badly about Sherlock not doing the same. 

So if he doesn't have PTSD, why does he get the psychosomatic limp? And the tremor in the left hand? And keeps clenching and unclenching that hand whenever he's under stress (great touch by Martin, btw).

The thing is, does that mean that only his therapist is right?  That Sherlock and Mycroft get it wrong, and that John even lies about it to Sherlock?    It doesn't really work for me. 

I think the limp was a nod to canon (apparently his injury switched between shoulder and leg), but I think it may also be a result of being withdrawn from the front line after the injury (if he really was on the front line!).   It disappears when he's on Sherlock's "battlefield", chasing murderers.   Clenching isn't the same as a tremor, but definitely it could be trying to keep the tremor under control.  From memory, I don't think it's necessarily there at times of danger - more at times of heightened emotion.  I will see what I think when I watch through again.  But I think Mycroft makes it clear that the therapist is wrong.  I do think it's the danger and adrenaline (and action/adventure) that he misses, but he and Sherlock seem to agree that "violent deaths" are part of that (and then Sherlock takes him to a murder scene).   That doesn't mean a lack of empathy - he still only wants to be on the side of good, whether it's defending people through being a soldier, or helping solve crimes.  It does mean he's a good person to have around in a dangerous situation.   Look at how surprisingly OK he is after killing the cabbie (it doesn't appear to have been traumatic for him).

From Arianne de Vere:
SHERLOCK: Seen a lot of injuries, then; violent deaths.
JOHN: Mmm, yes.
SHERLOCK: Bit of trouble too, I bet.
JOHN (quietly): Of course, yes. Enough for a lifetime. Far too much.
SHERLOCK: Wanna see some more?
JOHN (fervently): Oh God, yes.
............................................................
M: I imagine people have already warned you to stay away from him, but I can see from your left hand that’s not going to happen.
JOHN: My wot?
M : Show me.
JOHN: Don’t.
M: Remarkable.
JOHN: What is?
M: Most people blunder round this city, and all they see are streets and shops and cars. When you walk with Sherlock Holmes, you see the battlefield. You’ve seen it already, haven’t you?
JOHN: What’s wrong with my hand?
M: You have an intermittent tremor in your left hand.
M: Your therapist thinks it’s post-traumatic stress disorder. She thinks you’re haunted by memories of your military service.
JOHN : Who the hell are you? How do you know that?
M: Fire her. She’s got it the wrong way round. You’re under stress right now and your hand is perfectly steady.
M: You’re not haunted by the war, Doctor Watson ... you miss it.
M: Welcome back.

...........................................
SHERLOCK : The bullet they just dug out of the wall’s from a hand gun. Kill shot over that distance from that kind of a weapon – that’s a crack shot you’re looking for, but not just a marksman; a fighter. His hands couldn’t have shaken at all, so clearly he’s acclimatised to violence. He didn’t fire until I was in immediate danger, though, so strong moral principle. You’re looking for a man probably with a history of military service ... and nerves of steel ...
................................................

Kittyhawk, I'm quite happy with the explanation.  It does fit well, and puts some of the pieces together (he is a trained GP, he apparently was an army doctor at some point, and was a "doctor who went to war", but apparently wasn't acting as a doctor when he was discharged, etc.) and is probably a great one to have as a head canon (i might adopt it as mine).  I'm just not so happy with thinking that we're somehow supposed to know this from what we're shown - if the writers had wanted us to think this, then I'd want them to have explained it more clearly.  Thanks for the info about the dream - no wonder it looks like real footage!  Funny that the only real bit of the fictional story is a dream.  Anyway, Mycroft seems to be saying that it's not PTSD - perhaps something more like withdrawal symptoms. "Cured" by Sherlock.

Last edited by Liberty (June 14, 2015 5:02 am)

 

June 14, 2015 7:00 am  #40


Re: John's Military standing

No, the clenching isn't done when he's in danger, but when he's under stress. Which goes a bit against Mycroft's statement that his hand is steady under stress.

I just find the PTSD/adreanlinjunkie parts of his personality to clash a bit, and I have a bit of trouble figuring out what goes where.


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