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March 5, 2015 2:41 pm  #3661


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Or, to turn it right around: If they had wanted Mary to be seen together with John as often as possible, they would have filmed the scenes accordingly.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 5, 2015 2:54 pm  #3662


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

True, Solar. That's why I love that it is pointed out how often you can see Janine. It demonstrates that there would have been enough space, but probably no intention to show Mary.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

March 5, 2015 3:06 pm  #3663


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

True. And apart from Janine, I have no doubt that in tv shows or films you will always find a way to show the things you want to show. Camera angles, the positioning of the actors... there are various ways to film a scene.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 5, 2015 3:16 pm  #3664


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It's very obvious that this scene is not about John and Mary at all. To be honest, there are very, very few scenes in the entire wedding with Mary and John together that has to do with them being married. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

March 5, 2015 3:18 pm  #3665


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I wonder why?!

(Well, no, I don't. But those who believe that John and Mary are portraied as a nice couple should.)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

March 5, 2015 3:19 pm  #3666


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

It's very obvious that this scene is not about John and Mary at all. To be honest, there are very, very few scenes in the entire wedding with Mary and John together that has to do with them being married. 

 
And you have to wonder why the creators would make such a choice.      I have my own opinions on the matter.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 5, 2015 3:26 pm  #3667


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

tonnaree wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

It's very obvious that this scene is not about John and Mary at all. To be honest, there are very, very few scenes in the entire wedding with Mary and John together that has to do with them being married. 

 
And you have to wonder why the creators would make such a choice.      I have my own opinions on the matter.

Oh, do tell...!!
In my opinion they use this wedding to show us who's the real couple here.

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (March 5, 2015 3:29 pm)


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 5, 2015 3:35 pm  #3668


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

"John and Sherlock sitting in a tree
K.I.S.S.I.N.G."


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 5, 2015 3:37 pm  #3669


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

And were they sitting in a tree before or after the wedding?


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 5, 2015 3:40 pm  #3670


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem wrote:

And were they sitting in a tree before or after the wedding?

 
DURING.  *giggle*


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 5, 2015 3:49 pm  #3671


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Stop it, tonnaree!


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 5, 2015 4:23 pm  #3672


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem wrote:

tonnaree wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

It's very obvious that this scene is not about John and Mary at all. To be honest, there are very, very few scenes in the entire wedding with Mary and John together that has to do with them being married. 

 
And you have to wonder why the creators would make such a choice.      I have my own opinions on the matter.

Oh, do tell...!!
In my opinion they use this wedding to show us who's the real couple here.

 

I think this is quite a well-founded opinion. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 5, 2015 6:51 pm  #3673


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think it's very conscious.  These scenes (and the whole episode) are about John and Sherlock rather than John and Mary.   I'm not really sure why that's a puzzle .

No, seriously, it always surprises me that people expected this episode to be a romantic story about John and Mary getting married.   In the book, she's quite an important character as a client and yes, there's a kind of substory of John falling in love with her and planning to marry her, but even then it's thrown up against Sherlock's aloneness and, I suppose, his relationship with John. 

 

March 5, 2015 7:36 pm  #3674


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem wrote:

Stop it, tonnaree!

 
MAKE ME!   *runs away giggling madly*

TOPIC!

Does Johnlock actually exsist?  Why or why not?  discuss!


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 5, 2015 8:54 pm  #3675


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

I think it's very conscious.  These scenes (and the whole episode) are about John and Sherlock rather than John and Mary.   I'm not really sure why that's a puzzle .

No, seriously, it always surprises me that people expected this episode to be a romantic story about John and Mary getting married.   In the book, she's quite an important character as a client and yes, there's a kind of substory of John falling in love with her and planning to marry her, but even then it's thrown up against Sherlock's aloneness and, I suppose, his relationship with John. 

I do actually find it a bit surprising. Not critic-wothty or negative, just surprising. Because even sidekicks get their ten minutes of glory if they are married. Look at the esemble cast of Friends, for instance - Phoebe wasn't the "big couple" like Rachel/Ross and Chandler/Monica, yet her wedding was shown. I can't remember any other example at the top of my head, but I expected John to have his five minutes of glory when he got married. 

Not saying it's a bad thing or anything like that. Just not what I had expected.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

March 5, 2015 9:12 pm  #3676


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

While the love story between John and Mary is not meant to be in the centre of the show, it still seems conspicuously absent even during the wedding. The only traditionally romantic moment we get is the wedding dance and even here the focus shifts between the dancing couple and Sherlock with his violin. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 5, 2015 10:19 pm  #3677


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Do you think it's central in the book, then?   I don't really see it that way.   And we don't even see the wedding at all - just the proposal.  I know Steven Moffat said he really wanted to see Sherlock's best man speech and that's what we see.   I think "Mary's episode" is HLV if anything, not TSOT - that's where she really becomes part of the story.    It just surprises me that people see TSOT as a love story between John and Mary at all, or think that it should be. 

Vhanja, I think John gets his five minutes of glory through Sherlock's speech. 

 

March 5, 2015 10:28 pm  #3678


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

 
Vhanja, I think John gets his five minutes of glory through Sherlock's speech. 

That's a different kind of glory. That is still Sherlock & John. To me, it would be expected - and quite within the parametres of the show being Sherlock/John-centric - to let John and Mary have their five minutes of glory within their own wedding. But they don't. 
 

Last edited by Vhanja (March 5, 2015 10:28 pm)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

March 5, 2015 10:59 pm  #3679


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

*trying not to think too hard about Sherlock giving John his moment of glory*      


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 5, 2015 11:01 pm  #3680


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

tonnaree wrote:

*trying not to think too hard about Sherlock giving John his moment of glory*      

That's what we have fanfics for, dear. 
 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

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