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March 2, 2015 8:22 pm  #521


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Whisky wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

(2) The character of "Mary" generated a lot of buzz.
 

I think that's due to a better mystery to discuss. My opinion. I only discuss Mary because she is the most discussion worthy thing that happened in series 3 (apart from the usual discussions). Had there been more to go on about Moran or whatever, she wouldn't have generated such a buzz I suppose.

But again, this isn't something that just sort of happened. I think it's pretty clear that when you write a character in the way Mofftiss have written Mary - as the seemingly likeable girl that turns into some sort of black widow - that this will be the thing that fans will be talking about afterwards. You are right, there isn't much else in S3 to talk about really, it's Mary and what she did to Sherlock and John and what happens from there. But Mofftiss decided to write S3 that way, it didn't happen by accident.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 2, 2015 8:36 pm  #522


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, but if they want us to discuss Mary, the ambiguity needs to stay there, at least till the next series. And yet many here say that what we have seen in HLV is as much as we get - forgiveness by John, Mary Watson instead of A.G.R.A, and that's that solved. By your argumentation, the only way to go would be a new take on Mary in series 4 which resolves the ambiguity. And yet I cannot see the writers hint that way.
So if you say, you don't believe in a new dynamic for a longer time, you also think the Mary arch isn't finished?
I mean, that's what I would call bad writing - to create an inconclusive characterization, and then never tell the truth but make the character simply loose importance or write it off in some way


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

 

March 2, 2015 8:46 pm  #523


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Whisky wrote:

Yes, but if they want us to discuss Mary, the ambiguity needs to stay there, at least till the next series. And yet many here say that what we have seen in HLV is as much as we get - forgiveness by John, Mary Watson instead of A.G.R.A, and that's that solved. By your argumentation, the only way to go would be a new take on Mary in series 4 which resolves the ambiguity. And yet I cannot see the writers hint that way.
So if you say, you don't believe in a new dynamic for a longer time, you also think the Mary arch isn't finished?
I mean, that's what I would call bad writing - to create an inconclusive characterization, and then never tell the truth but make the character simply loose importance or write it off in some way

Or, maybe it's a kinda-sorta Post-Modernist approach-- ( which I tend to not enjoy)  where it doesn't have to make sense. Moffat said in an interview that he doesn't trust backstory. He doesn't like having to do background writing--before doing the series itself, which tells me that he's more invested in plot turns and twists than contiuity of character. I think Mofftiss likes creating controversy-- and Mary has done that. It may also be the "Evil Woman Redeemed By The Love Of A Good Man" trope Moffatt seems to be fond of...., and if that's the case-- Mary may actually become "one of the team." 

Sigh. 

 

March 2, 2015 8:54 pm  #524


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Sigh. 

Yes.
 


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

 

March 2, 2015 9:01 pm  #525


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Or, maybe it's a kinda-sorta Post-Modernist approach-- ( which I tend to not enjoy)  where it doesn't have to make sense. Moffat said in an interview that he doesn't trust backstory. He doesn't like having to do background writing--before doing the series itself, which tells me that he's more invested in plot turns and twists than contiuity of character. I think Mofftiss likes creating controversy-- and Mary has done that. It may also be the "Evil Woman Redeemed By The Love Of A Good Man" trope Moffatt seems to be fond of...., and if that's the case-- Mary may actually become "one of the team." 

Sigh. 

Heavens, don't give me nightmares...
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 2, 2015 9:08 pm  #526


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SolarSystem wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Or, maybe it's a kinda-sorta Post-Modernist approach-- ( which I tend to not enjoy)  where it doesn't have to make sense. Moffat said in an interview that he doesn't trust backstory. He doesn't like having to do background writing--before doing the series itself, which tells me that he's more invested in plot turns and twists than contiuity of character. I think Mofftiss likes creating controversy-- and Mary has done that. It may also be the "Evil Woman Redeemed By The Love Of A Good Man" trope Moffatt seems to be fond of...., and if that's the case-- Mary may actually become "one of the team." 

Sigh. 

Heavens, don't give me nightmares...
 

Chocolate?  (Pat, pat, pat)

 

March 2, 2015 9:23 pm  #527


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So you all really think that they will give up what they professedly love most about Canon - the dynamic between Holmes and Watson? And that Mary will become a completely good guy in series 4 with resurrected Moriarty as sole baddie? Come on. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 2, 2015 9:50 pm  #528


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

So you all really think that they will give up what they professedly love most about Canon - the dynamic between Holmes and Watson? And that Mary will become a completely good guy in series 4 with resurrected Moriarty as sole baddie? Come on. 

Grrrlfriend, I really hope not-- 

 

March 2, 2015 9:52 pm  #529


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Neither do I. I still trust them. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 2, 2015 10:55 pm  #530


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Ditto.
They troll and they tease and the drive us mad, but I still trust in Moftiss.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

March 3, 2015 9:06 am  #531


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm not sure if this is something serious, but I had to smile at what people still discover...
http://bagogems.tumblr.com/post/101984927897/warmth-and-constancy-its-just-a-little


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 3, 2015 10:44 am  #532


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

That's incredible. I really never, ever noticed a necklace (maybe I noticed *something*, but never taking a closer look or even wasting a thought). I am not so sure about the meaning, though. It sounds briliiant and plausible, but I just can't believe they would do research on flowers to underline the Mary character.

tonnaree wrote:

I still trust in Moftiss.

I have trust issues
 

Last edited by Whisky (March 3, 2015 10:45 am)


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

 

March 3, 2015 10:51 am  #533


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Whisky wrote:

tonnaree wrote:

I still trust in Moftiss.

I have trust issues  

Ha, me too. To some extent. I know it's their show and they can do with it whatever they like, but well, I think that's exactly what Moffat thought when he took over "Doctor Who"...  
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 3, 2015 11:11 am  #534


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SolarSystem wrote:

Whisky wrote:

tonnaree wrote:

I still trust in Moftiss.

I have trust issues  

Ha, me too. To some extent. I know it's their show and they can do with it whatever they like, but well, I think that's exactly what Moffat thought when he took over "Doctor Who"...  
 

Yep, and that's why I am afraid of the Special. But that's another topic :D


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

 

March 3, 2015 11:15 am  #535


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I'm not in the slightest into Dr. Who and know next to nothing about it. Did Moffat save it or ruin it?


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 3, 2015 11:20 am  #536


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I am not confident enough in Dr. Who verse to profoundly answer that :-)
What I know is that I like Moffats Dr. Who but don't want to go Sherlock that way.

 


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

 

March 3, 2015 11:22 am  #537


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

mrshouse, ask ten people about it and you will most likely get ten different answers.
In my opinion he wrote absolutely wonderful episodes for Who when he was 'just' a writer and not the show runner. But when he took over as show runner it felt so different to me - and not in a good way. It took me forever to get used to it.
But of course I know that "Sherlock" isn't "Doctor Who" and that Moffat certainly has a very different connection to "Sherlock", which has always been 'his own' show. And I don't want to be too negative, believe me. It's just that with his version of Who I always had the feeling that he wanted to do something extra-special, and while doing that he neglected the things I had loved so much before. And that's what I see in S3 to some extent... neglect of some of the things I loved so much in S1/2. I really hope there is a good reason for that and he'll give that back to me eventually. (And yes, I repeat, it's his show, not mine...) 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 3, 2015 11:24 am  #538


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I see. Yes, getting extra special doesn't always work.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 10, 2015 5:38 am  #539


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I have moved this discussen from the Sherlock and Sholto thread because it fits in here better:

Ah-chie wrote:

REReader wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

Interesting thread. The comment "neither of us were the first, you know" is something I've always interpreted as Mary saying John has had girlfriends before Mary and very close friends before Sherlock. It's meant as a comment (and sort of comfort) to Sherlock when Mary sees his obvious discomfort and jealousy. I imagine since Sherlock has never had any close friends before, he probably assumed John hadn't either. And I can actually understand that stinging a bit.

This is how I automatically understood it; it seems the simplest and most likely meaning.

Make that a "three-sie"!  This is how I understood it too.  It's pretty clear to me that Mary, because she is more of a social person than Sherlock, is just gently clueing Sherlock into the situation when she picked up on his confusion as to Sholto's and John's relationship.  It's a lovely scene actually and one I really like because it one of the ones that shows a connection between Mary and Sherlock, as it relates to John (their common denominator).

-Val
 

When I first watched it I still liked Mary a lot. (She hadn't shot Sherlock by then, of course, so I was really fond of her. Yet, I always thought that comment a bit mean.

She knows enough about Sherlock and John to understand how much John means to Sherlock, andthat John is most likely the first person ever to call Sherlock "best friend".

Now, "comforting" him in his jealousy with pointing out that unlike Sherlock, John had many friends before does not sound comforting to me. It feels more like rubbing salt into the wound and then changing the subject fast.

I always thought that scene was supposed to underline her unknown pregnancy by showing her a bit bitchy. (She fusses over the wine instantly afterward, another sign of her pregnancy.)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

March 10, 2015 8:11 am  #540


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Same with me. I do not find anything comforting in her behaviour. And I am not sure she is even telling the truth here. John may have told her about Sholto but I do not believe that he talked about him all the time. Sherlock seems to think that he was the one John talked about and Mary twice confirms that it was Sholto, not Sherlock. 
Which is contradicted at the beginning of HLV with Mary's annoyed "See? That does happen" which I always took as a hint the John talked about Sherlock far too often for Mary's liking. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

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