I don't view BBC Sherlock as a negative character at all. I love that he is multi-faceted, grey, dynamic and can go from being the biggest hero you've seen to the biggest jerk in the blink of an eye. To me, that is what makes him so interesting. I can't imagine anything more boring then a square-jawed knight in shining armour who is only goody-goody. 

I think SH doesn't fit very well into the society he lives in because he is better than it and has risen above it. Often Holmes is used as a tool to point out all the things that are wrong with us and society and even sometimes how to be better .
Thats rather a large part of the whole thing....we are supposed to raise ourselves ...not drag SH down to our level.
Quite a few of the BBC episodes have sort of sold that message...the bankers..the inept @corrupt police @ judicial system ,the media driven society , newspapers bs lies and hypocrisy...etc etc.
Modern Society is rubbish and unfair and mostly meaningless babble...Why would we want a Holmes or a Watson that conforms to any part of it....the problems aren't really with SH...but with peoples expectations and perceptions.

I don't see anything wrong with SH...more with the people that surround him.....yes deceiving John over his death was awful...but he did tell his immediate family...and had gone undercover to work for MI6 in stopping Moriartys dangerous network  , one would assume .....not blowing off the official secrets act by informing your flatmate...risking lives and the mission and perhaps the country...was a good thing.
I think as a soldier...and having returned from a warzone...John understands all that and that was one of the reasons they seemed to click so quickly...and why after the apology and explanation John forgave him. It isn't unreasonable given the circumstances.

perhaps should go in the free rant thread......

Last edited by lil (January 27, 2015 1:38 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

I found this to be rather interesting, and raising some really good points.

http://tjlc.tumblr.com/post/109830202756/martinsgrrrl-looking-at-the-entirety-of-this

I liked this line, "If they're not writing a romance, they are doing it wrong."
That's it, in a nutshell. If johnlock is a figment of our squeeing fangirl fantasies, then I guess the writers of Sherlock also must be squeeing fangirls with johnlock fantasies, because it's right there, over and over again.
 

Vhanja wrote:

And that short meta made me think of the Sherlock/Irene-relationship. Irene is said by everyone to be the only woman Sherlock has shown any interest in. How deep that interest was, is up for debate. But I think everyone agrees that he was fascinated by her.

But all through out what is supposed to be scenes between Sherlock and his only female counterpart, scenes filled with sexual tension, John is always on Sherlock's mind.

- When Irene flirts and tell Sherlock to "impress a girl" - Sherlock dismiss her to please not start tellling him how amazing that was, "because John has stated that in every variation of the English language".

- When he is alone with a very charming, sensual and intelligent Irene, his first question is: "Where's John?", looking slightly lost for a second there. And then continuing: "I was talking to him". His focus was still on John, not on the beautiful woman more or less throwing herself in his lap.

- When he finally won, and can excel in a moment of triumph. "John thinks love is a mystery to me..." Even THEN, John is on the forefront of his mind.

For an episode who is supposed to be about whether or not Sherlock is romantically or sexually attracted to a woman that can match him in intelligence and cunning, John is surprisingly often - and more or less  always - the first thing on his mind.

Because although the writers said in the beginning that this was going to be "a show about a detective", somehow they've turned it into a show about Sherlock and John.


 

ancientsgate wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

And that short meta made me think of the Sherlock/Irene-relationship. Irene is said by everyone to be the only woman Sherlock has shown any interest in. How deep that interest was, is up for debate. But I think everyone agrees that he was fascinated by her.

But all through out what is supposed to be scenes between Sherlock and his only female counterpart, scenes filled with sexual tension, John is always on Sherlock's mind.

- When Irene flirts and tell Sherlock to "impress a girl" - Sherlock dismiss her to please not start tellling him how amazing that was, "because John has stated that in every variation of the English language".

- When he is alone with a very charming, sensual and intelligent Irene, his first question is: "Where's John?", looking slightly lost for a second there. And then continuing: "I was talking to him". His focus was still on John, not on the beautiful woman more or less throwing herself in his lap.

- When he finally won, and can excel in a moment of triumph. "John thinks love is a mystery to me..." Even THEN, John is on the forefront of his mind.

For an episode who is supposed to be about whether or not Sherlock is romantically or sexually attracted to a woman that can match him in intelligence and cunning, John is surprisingly often - and more or less  always - the first thing on his mind.

Because although the writers said in the beginning that this was going to be "a show about a detective", somehow they've turned it into a show about Sherlock and John.

And a lot of people, even on this forum, have said this all along. Those examples of John constantly being on Sherlocks mind have been given numerous times before.
 

Not directly related to the most recent posts, but I´d like to bring it over here as it´s imo the most spot-on description for my stance on Johnlock:

Lola Red wrote:

I’m just going to out myself here as a Johnlock agnostic, before anyone acuses me of being a)homophobic or b) delusional. I can see both: one of the greatest friendships in fiction and one of the greatest romances in fiction, depending on how I angle my head.

I think it´s deliberately designed like that, like those postcards who show a different picture depending from which side you´re looking at it. No one is delusional for seeing one of the pictures, but imo if you take a step back and try to get a complete picture of the show you see that neither side will ever exist exclusively. (Of course they could paint a new picture anytime, but at the present time with everything we are shown considered for me this is the most realistic and encompassing explanation).

And it's those little small things - how often they are on each other's mind and how the world of one always seem to revolve around the other - that makes me see the romance. That, above anything having to do with sex or "wanting to see them get at it". 

I agree. Well, I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more if it came to that. *whistles* But not too much, as I figure that would just be too uncomfortable for the actors so it would just be awkward to watch.

But, yes, to me it makes little sense that John can't be happy for a month without Sherlock - even as a newly-wed - if they are "just friends". The real world simply doesn't work like that. (And I don't buy him just craving action - he could take up hanggliding or mountain-climbing if that was all it took).

Vhanja wrote:

I agree. Well, I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more if it came to that. *whistles* But not too much, as I figure that would just be too uncomfortable for the actors so it would just be awkward to watch.

Which is a big reason why I have a hard time with the writers finally "going there" with the characters, and then us having to sit there and watch the train wreck they could very possibly make out of it. I don't want to sit and look at Sherlock and John finally share a kiss and acknowledge that they're in romantic relationship, whether they know it or not or whether they like it or not, and have to cringe because the writers have been too heavy-handed with them or especially if I can pick up on either actor not being 100% on board with the idea.

In fact, unless and until both actors are 100% on board with the idea, I doubt the writers would go there anyway. Male actors expect to have to kiss women in their work, but not all male actors are comfortable with the idea of kissing another man, for whatever reasons of their own-- which I think is their right, you know, to be uncomfortable with it and say so, if they are.

But, yes, to me it makes little sense that John can't be happy for a month without Sherlock - even as a newly-wed - if they are "just friends". The real world simply doesn't work like that. (And I don't buy him just craving action - he could take up hanggliding or mountain-climbing if that was all it took).

Thanks for the smile. Hang-gliding and mountain climbing, indeed. lol

SusiGo wrote:

Why should something like kissing be uncomfortable for the actors? They are professionals. It should not be too uncomfortable to kiss a man if you are a professonial actor (same goes for actresses of course). 

I don't know. Why is anyone uncomfortable doing anything?

I come from a huge background of following Brokeback Mountain, and I remember how everyone was talking about how "brave" Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger were at the time to take on gay roles-- not just gay characters, but gay characters having sex, kissing, and conducting a real romance with sexual liasons over many, many years, in spite of their marriages to women in the story. There were people (general public people and people in the biz) at the time who wondered if JG and HL were putting paid to their careers by choosing to do BBM. Exactly the opposite came to be true, but when the two actors signed on with Ang Lee to do those roles, it was a great big unknown for them and for their careers.

So yeah, Ben and Martin are professionals, but they're also human beings totally in control of their own careers, so they have the right to pick and choose what roles they want to do and where (in this case) they'd like their characters to go, long term. And to assume any risk to those careers that a certain project or character's activities might entail. But anyway, whatever they decide doesn't have to make sense to us or anyone else, only to them.

Just my two cents. Until Ben and Martin decide to speak publicly about johnlock in a serious way, it's all speculation.