Liberty wrote:

It's interesting that you mentioned that people have different views on Benedict's attractiveness.  I think he's been deliberately made very attractive for Sherlock (I do think he's gorgeous anyway, but I don't think the way he looks in Sherlock is an accident).  Even people who don't normally find him attractive can find him attractive in Sherlock.   There seem to be so many references to attractive heroes, whether it's film noir detectives or Heathcliff on the moors.  I'm sure that must be an influence - because he's presented as so attractive, it's difficult (for us) to imagine why John wouldn't find him attractive in that way too. 

Oh, I very much agree with you on this!
Most actors nowadays leave me absolutely cold but Benedict in his Sherlock costume worked like an eletricity on me! Such an unearthly beauty!
Yes, bisexual or not, John would have to be blind not to notice how attractive his companion is.
 

That's a good point, Zatoichi.  I've seen massive changes in my lifetime in the area of gay rights (and I think gay rights concern all of us) in the UK.   Homophobia is still an issue but it's now (publicly) disapproved of, and this makes me happy . I sure that the writers have no intention to minimise what happens in other countries (or in the UK, still to some extent - I'm not claiming things are perfect here).  But there has long been a complaint that gay stories on film tend to be negative - that they show people being conflicted about their sexuality or even dying.   I think it's good and positive to show a more positive side, and think Sherlock reflects the change in attitudes in a positive way.  For me watching, from a UK perspective, it would now be shocking if, for instance, Mrs Hudson started making homophobic comments.  

I can understand why people would be disappointed that the writers didn't choose such an obvious couple to show as gay.  I'm a little bit surprised myself, I have to admit.   It would have been a nice opportunity to show a happy gay couple in a non-homophobic environment.   But I like what they've done with the friendship.  It's more meaningful to me, personally.  I'm also reasonably happy with the tensions and imperfections in the relationship, and feel that they work better in the special friendship we're shown than they would in a conventional sexual relationship (as if Sherlock would ever have a conventional relationship, but you know what I mean).   The lack of communication, for instance, is something that I think works well in a friendship but I wouldn't like so much in a conventional relationship.  The banter, as well. It would be a dysfunctional relationship, if it wasn't for the fact that it functions.

Nakahara, yes, he does seem to have that electric effect!  I can't help identifying a little with Molly sometimes, being so enthralled by him.  I thought it was interesting that they set up her character like that right at the beginning as Sherlock is being introduced, perhaps just to show us how compelling Sherlock is.  We see him through her eyes.  Through Irene's a bit as well.  (Through John's too, but that's a given, being the basis for the ACD stories!). 

(It's strange, because I think Benedict is actually more attractive as himself than he is as Sherlock.  I was trying to work out why, and I think it's because his face is so open, whereas Sherlock's is so often closed.  But there's still some sort of X factor that makes Sherlock devastating in a different way.  It's not there when Benedict's in costume as Sherlock, but not acting him). 

Last edited by Liberty (September 18, 2014 6:39 am)

Liberty wrote:

Nakahara, yes, he does seem to have that electric effect!  I can't help identifying a little with Molly sometimes, being so enthralled by him.  I thought it was interesting that they set up her character like that right at the beginning as Sherlock is being introduced, perhaps just to show us how compelling Sherlock is.  We see him through her eyes.  Through Irene's a bit as well.  (Through John's too, but that's a given, being the basis for the ACD stories!). 

(It's strange, because I think Benedict is actually more attractive as himself than he is as Sherlock.  I was trying to work out why, and I think it's because his face is so open, whereas Sherlock's is so often closed.  But there's still some sort of X factor that makes Sherlock devastating in a different way.  It's not there when Benedict's in costume as Sherlock, but not acting him). 

I find Molly´s behaviour around him very belivable and understandable. Who would behave differently if they met such a beautiful specimen of male on a regular basis? And yes, she was probably introduced into the story precisely for that effect.

Well, Sherlock has an obnoxious older brother with an even better gift at deduction that he has himself, so if he want to have at least of semblance of privacy, he must wear that poker face most of the time. (Ben as himself doesn´t have the same need). But Sherlock looking unapproachable that way also makes him all the more desirable - it kinda provokes the audience into wanting him all the more.
 

SolarSystem wrote:

nakahara wrote:

But Sherlock looking unapproachable that way also makes him all the more desirable - it kinda provokes the audience into wanting him all the more.

And it probably provokes people who do see Johnlock in the show into wanting John to want him all the more. 
 

Of, course!
That´s goes without question.
 

nakahara wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

nakahara wrote:

But Sherlock looking unapproachable that way also makes him all the more desirable - it kinda provokes the audience into wanting him all the more.

And it probably provokes people who do see Johnlock in the show into wanting John to want him all the more. 
 

Of, course!
That´s goes without question.
 

The OTHER thread, girls, the OTHER thread...

You're not, Solar...
I know you for real

besleybean wrote:

Not entirtely sure about your final comment, Zatoichi, but I can certainly empathise with the sentiment of your post.
If no British people didn't get the gay joke thing, I would almost wonder if there was a wider cultural issue...maybe it's partly a generational thing.
The wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more humoir is so imbedded in traditional British humour...coupled with the legendary speculation about the Holmes-Watson relationship...
It baffles me why people don't see what Mark and Steven did,
Mark being out gay in a(then)fairly tolerant society and with his humor was happy to indulge.
I think the deep, loving friendship between these 2 men muddies the water for some.
I just think it's sad that so many people seem unaware that some men are lucky enouh to enjoy these kind of loving friendships...what a bleak world some inhabit.

Not entirely sure about it myself, but.. well. I hope the central point I was trying to make came across. 

I think your post points to the heart of the matter - I couldn´t quite pinpoint it myself as I´m not British, but that´s exactly what I felt was happening. Them using the legendary speculations about the two of them plus an imbedded element of British humour.. I think that´s what Mark meant when he said "That’s just obviously such fun to play with, and the fact that people now assume—in a very positive way—that they’re together is a different joke to it being a negative connotation."
For me it works beautifully, and I feel very protective about them if some fans seem to feel justified to start a riot or to accuse them of poking fun at gay people just because of something that´s obviously a misunderstanding of their humour and background.

Liberty wrote:

But there has long been a complaint that gay stories on film tend to be negative - that they show people being conflicted about their sexuality or even dying.   I think it's good and positive to show a more positive side, and think Sherlock reflects the change in attitudes in a positive way. 

I came across a blog run by a gay person lately, who said just that - that he or she (don´t remember) didn´t want to be represented by their relationship because it´s not what positive representation looks like. I think what Sherlockt does represent, and very unconflicted and for everyone to see and learn from, is an environment completely free of homophobia. That´s something very valuable in itself, even when (or especially when) watched from other more repressed countries.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 18, 2014 11:22 am)

Oh I think she does...but she now accepts she and Sherlock will only ever be friends.

Last edited by besleybean (September 18, 2014 8:41 pm)

From Canon - he must must really want his doctor back:

“At the time of which I speak Holmes had been back for some months, and I, at his request, had sold my practice and returned to share the old quarters in Baker Street. A young doctor, named Verner, had purchased my small Kensington practice, and given with astonishingly little demur the highest price that I ventured to ask—an incident which only explained itself some years later when I found that Verner was a distant relation of Holmes’s, and that it was my friend who had really found the money.”
—     
The Adventure of the Norwood Builder, The Return of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 20, 2014 1:01 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

From Canon - he must must really want his doctor back:

“At the time of which I speak Holmes had been back for some months, and I, at his request, had sold my practice and returned to share the old quarters in Baker Street. A young doctor, named Verner, had purchased my small Kensington practice, and given with astonishingly little demur the highest price that I ventured to ask—an incident which only explained itself some years later when I found that Verner was a distant relation of Holmes’s, and that it was my friend who had really found the money.”
—     
The Adventure of the Norwood Builder, The Return of Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
 

He prefers his doctor with him in 221B...