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September 13, 2014 9:58 am  #821


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I love that scene, Susi.
Though it's heart breaking, when John immediately realises the very message Sherlock was trynig to send and who to...
He does not want to answer that phone, because he knows exactly who it is and what he's going to say.


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September 13, 2014 11:13 am  #822


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

What scene is that?  It's not coming to me.

Good points about how well John knows Sherlock.  It's very harsh I suppose that without truly knowing him he has blind faith in him, and then that faith is tested to the extreme.   Poor John.  Yes, I think he would think about that conversation at the hospital.  Of course, Sherlock needed him to go, and it was necessary that he didn't understand Sherlock at that point.  At that point, their partnership is disrupted too - John is no longer an assistant but an inconvenience (in terms of Sherlock's work) - a weak point and a way for Moriarty to manipulate Sherlock.   There is nothing John can or could have done to help.   But he doesn't know that. 

Anyway, I meant that he must have been rather tortured and conflicted after the death.  And I think he half-believed Sherlock was alive for a long time too.   So Mary doesn't see a normal grieving process but that's because of the manner of Sherlock's death rather than the fact of it. 

Last edited by Liberty (September 13, 2014 11:14 am)

 

September 13, 2014 11:45 am  #823


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

The scene where John's chair has been returned  and he looks at the perfume bottle.


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September 13, 2014 1:03 pm  #824


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Oh yes, thank you!

 

September 13, 2014 1:08 pm  #825


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Interesting @ Liberty..
John never knowing who Mary really was..etc but also ..
Did Mary ever really know who John was?
The John Watson we assume she met and fell in love with...was one grieving for and without Sherlock... perhaps something like the beige bedsit John we saw before he met Sherlock.....
Now she has the John with Sherlock John..who is a very different man from the one she met surely...maybe she missed her grieving quiet.. easily controlled.. all about Mary John....

Neither of them really knew each other at all did they...

 

September 18, 2014 6:33 am  #826


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I was thinking of Sherlock at Magnusson's waiting for the helicopters to come so that he can kill Magnusson publicly.  Presumably to make it absolutely clear that he's murdering Magnusson (not John - it's John's gun and both would be suspects if it had happened earlier).  I just realised that he foreshadows this when he tells the story about Mary - he says that Mary didn't shoot Magnusson because she didn't want John to be a suspect. 

 

September 18, 2014 11:17 am  #827


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Liberty wrote:

Anyway, I meant that he must have been rather tortured and conflicted after the death.  And I think he half-believed Sherlock was alive for a long time too.   So Mary doesn't see a normal grieving process but that's because of the manner of Sherlock's death rather than the fact of it. 

But everything you say here about Mary and the state John was in when she met him... all of this is assuming that she just met him by chance and maybe really intended at one point to tell him about her past. And then she decided against it because she had seen how Sherlock's death had affected John.
Thing is, I am not convinced she met John by chance. That's too much of a coincidence for me. I tend to believe that she did seek him out for some reason we don't know anything about yet. And that she never intended to tell him the truth.
 


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September 18, 2014 1:11 pm  #828


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I am certainly open to the idea(and have said so before!) that Mary is a plant...but even then, she could have changed her mind and really fallen for John.


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September 18, 2014 2:28 pm  #829


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Liberty wrote:

I was thinking of Sherlock at Magnusson's waiting for the helicopters to come so that he can kill Magnusson publicly.  Presumably to make it absolutely clear that he's murdering Magnusson (not John - it's John's gun and both would be suspects if it had happened earlier).  I just realised that he foreshadows this when he tells the story about Mary - he says that Mary didn't shoot Magnusson because she didn't want John to be a suspect. 

 
Idk what to think about the Mary thought John would be a suspect claim....the reality of it is ridiculous...abso no evidence John did anything....you can't hold much less convict a person because they are at scene.... and JW@SH are well used to being suspects.
like Marys two impossible shots...she would have to still train/practise regularly..yet SH says she was out of the game..and apparently for a few years...
Then there's notoriously unpredictable London traffic...predicted to the minute...
Might just be..it's tv go with it...but it's messy for theese writers. !

Last edited by lil (September 18, 2014 2:37 pm)

 

September 18, 2014 6:01 pm  #830


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

It's Sherlock who gives the story about Mary not wanting to be a suspect, though (not Mary).  And he does exactly the same thing (well, not exactly the same - he says Mary spares Magnusson so John won't be a suspect.  And Sherlock shoots Magnusson publicly so John won't be a suspect.    I think you're right that John wouldn't be convicted of murder in either case - not evidence in the first case, and Sherlock taking responsibility in the second case.   But in both cases he would come under suspicion.  At Magnusson's he'd be in his office with two bodies and two unconscious victims who didn't see their attacker.  He'd be the obvious suspect, so Sherlock's story does make a little sense.   And at Appledore, even if Sherlock had confessed, it would have been John's gun which was (illegally?) brought to Appledore and used - perhaps aiding and abetting would be a possible charge. 

I thought there was an irony in him telling the story before going on to do the same thing.  It's almost as if he knew ... or if thinking of the first story put the idea in his head.

SolarSystem wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Anyway, I meant that he must have been rather tortured and conflicted after the death.  And I think he half-believed Sherlock was alive for a long time too.   So Mary doesn't see a normal grieving process but that's because of the manner of Sherlock's death rather than the fact of it. 

But everything you say here about Mary and the state John was in when she met him... all of this is assuming that she just met him by chance and maybe really intended at one point to tell him about her past. And then she decided against it because she had seen how Sherlock's death had affected John.
Thing is, I am not convinced she met John by chance. That's too much of a coincidence for me. I tend to believe that she did seek him out for some reason we don't know anything about yet. And that she never intended to tell him the truth.
 

OK, I'm confused!  Why does Mary have to have met John by chance for John to be grieving and conflicted?  Whether Mary's a plant or not, she doesn't know John until after Sherlock's death, presumably.

I personally don't think it IS a coincidence, but I don't see how that's affects how John deals with Sherlock's death.

Last edited by Liberty (September 18, 2014 7:34 pm)

 

September 18, 2014 6:59 pm  #831


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

The idea of Mary being a plant doesn't make sense to me either. She only got to know John after Sherlock's death so what kind of plant could she be? Spy on a home doctor? No, I think whatever Mary is is unrelated to whatever Sherlock is. 

 

September 18, 2014 7:13 pm  #832


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I think that would be a very odd coincidence. An undercover ex-assassin meets John Watson, the closest person to Sherlock Holmes? Is the universe that lazy?


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September 18, 2014 7:22 pm  #833


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

@ SolarSystem, @ Harriet-- I concur-- I can't believe that out of all the women in London, John just happened to meet and fall in love with an ex (!?!) assasin, who still had her assasin tools (gun, silencer, building scaling kit, commando outfit) who was masquerading as a "normal", suburban wife-wannabe. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 18, 2014 7:22 pm)

 

September 18, 2014 8:37 pm  #834


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Indeed. And I just watched TEH again. The whole skip code thing is strange. Such a coincidence that she was near Baker Street and found Sherlock at home. What would have happened if he had been out? Did they observe them? It all fit so neatly - John planning to visit Sherlock, Mary making sure by asking if he did so, her being away for the evening. And the fact that the messages are shown in three colors - did we explain that?


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
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September 18, 2014 8:44 pm  #835


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

And if Magnussen wanted Sherlock, why didn´t he send the message directly to him? Why involving Mary at all?

 

September 18, 2014 8:46 pm  #836


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Maybe he wanted to check if John was really Sherlock's pressure point?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

September 18, 2014 9:04 pm  #837


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

So he must have known Mary would go to Sherlock and not to the police. Does that suggest that he knew who Mary was already? 

 

September 18, 2014 9:08 pm  #838


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I think so. And we have no idea if she met John by coincidence or if she was there at someone's order or even had an aganda of her own. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

September 18, 2014 9:24 pm  #839


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

SusiGo wrote:

Maybe he wanted to check if John was really Sherlock's pressure point?

Maybe I´m being dense, but if he had sent the message directly to Sherlock surely he could have checked his reaction, too? His number is on his homepage, so why sending it to Mary´s phone instead?  Did he bother finding out her phone number via Janine? It just means a delay in Sherlock getting the message and another person in on the bike.. I find it suspicious ( but it´s probably just a case of "we need someone to read threatening messages to Sherlock during the bike race to make it even more nerve-wracking..^^)
 

 

September 18, 2014 9:27 pm  #840


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Of course. I find it very suspicious that it is Mary who gets the message, decodes it, runs to Sherlock, directs him to the bonfire. Might be a stylistic means but in the light of what we learn later about Mary it is really odd. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

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