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September 1, 2014 4:11 pm  #1741


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

You make a point here, mrshouse. And not just one 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 1, 2014 4:16 pm  #1742


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well said, mrshouse. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 1, 2014 4:30 pm  #1743


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't think the two statements are incompatible.  I don't think he's denying now that they love each other or that the story is about their relationship.   He's just objecting to the idea that if you don't see the characters as gay, you must be homophobic .. which also implies that the writers are homophobic if they don't turn the characters gay, the actors are homophobic if they don't play them as gay, etc. 

I might be wrong, but I feel that calling it the gayest story implies that the characters aren't overtly gay.  It's the kind of thing you might say about, for example, the 80s ITV series of Brideshead Revisited (where it was implied), but not about the 2008 film of Brideshead Revisited (where it was explicit).  If that makes any sense.

Last edited by Liberty (September 1, 2014 4:36 pm)

 

September 1, 2014 7:01 pm  #1744


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

mrshouse wrote:

I just kept up reading and this one made me think a lot. I have an uneasy feeling that Martin somehow doesn't feel comfortable about the topic of johnlock at all. And I have a feeling, that things might get mixed up in his (or his and Amandas) view of it. I have the feeling that since the whole Mary Morstan business started from planning, writing, casting and then -alas- insulting Amanda privately and purposely he feels very supportive. Which is highly understandable in every facet. She's his Mrs and mother of their children after all. But it mingles with the show here, which feels wrong for me. Not the last reason why I would have preferred not for a real life couple to play here.
In 2011 he felt much more at ease obviously.

I think he might have been more at ease with it in 2011 because the topic became political (and yes, quite out of hand on tumblr) after S3 aired. Before everyone was having fun with it, afterwards there were statements like "how you dare not shipping them when there are still people out there dying because of homophobia?!?!", which were a slap in the face of every non-shipper with a feeling heart. And also in the face of the makers, one of them gay, who were told that if Johnlock wouldn´t become canon they were nothing more than queerbaiting *insert insult of choice*. I think Martin didn´t speak against Johnlock as such but against these extreme attitudes within the fandom. He might not only feel protective towards Amanda but towards the whole production..

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 1, 2014 7:09 pm)

 

September 1, 2014 7:35 pm  #1745


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, I've had the dubious pleasure of sitting in a public lecture, listening to the ' queer bait' crap.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 1, 2014 7:39 pm  #1746


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Why do you call it crap? I think it depends on the outcome of the series. In case they keep teasing people for years and years with all these allusions and then do not fulfill their hopes and expectations, I would not wonder if those people felt cheated. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 1, 2014 7:43 pm  #1747


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

And bb, you said yourself before you would not like them to make jokes about it.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 1, 2014 7:50 pm  #1748


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Er...my exact words?
No, I wouldn't want them to laugh at genuine gay relationshpis...which they don't.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 1, 2014 7:54 pm  #1749


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Sorry, I think Susi's reply was first 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 2, 2014 7:43 am  #1750


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

I don't think the two statements are incompatible.  I don't think he's denying now that they love each other or that the story is about their relationship.   He's just objecting to the idea that if you don't see the characters as gay, you must be homophobic .. which also implies that the writers are homophobic if they don't turn the characters gay, the actors are homophobic if they don't play them as gay, etc. 

I might be wrong, but I feel that calling it the gayest story implies that the characters aren't overtly gay.  It's the kind of thing you might say about, for example, the 80s ITV series of Brideshead Revisited (where it was implied), but not about the 2008 film of Brideshead Revisited (where it was explicit).  If that makes any sense.

 
No, I didn't want to say it was incompatible, rather a development about his feelings concerning Johnlock. Maybe in the beginnings of all he felt much more flattered by it. But now, and I'm sorry to say that but I feel it is a bit like that because Amanda is uncomfortable with the topic, that he distances himself more and more to protect his partner in private. I have to admit though that I don't mingle with fans apart from this forum so I hardly get in touch with the more "violent" Johnlock statements...


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 2, 2014 7:50 am  #1751


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well, as far as I remember Amanda was more open about Johnlock than Martin and Benedict and even  joked about it on Twitter. And the fact that Mary as a character is disliked by many fans is not just a knee-jerk reaction by Johnlockers but mainly due to the way she is written (which is no excuse for bashing Amanda as a person.)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 2, 2014 8:02 am  #1752


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Did she? Didn't know that. But I think they both don't feel comfortable anymore now for various reasons. And of course you're absolutely right, Susi, that we must separate the figure in the show and the actress in her private life, no doubt about that. I just had this uneasy feeling that both actors feel more and more uncomfortable about Johnlock for reasons that actually mingle with them as private couple and persons. I hope I can make myself understandable....


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 2, 2014 8:12 am  #1753


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I understand what you mean and there might be some truth to it. They may feel under pressure when they hear that so many people have these expectations. But on the other hand the expectations are not there without a reason. I am not talking about the I'm-not-gay thing but all the other hints they served us in series 3 and which cannot be explained away as a joke. Just look at Sherlock's face on the dance floor and on the tarmac and his return from death for John and tell me that this is "mocking". 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 2, 2014 8:18 am  #1754


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think I do know what you mean, Mrshouse, but I don't think that's what Martin is saying in this particular interview.   I have ventured beyond this forum now and then, and he's absolutely right - there are people claiming that anybody who doesn't see Johnlock is homophobic.  That's quite a serious insult.   It would be offensive regardless of anything in the actors' personal lives. 

Last edited by Liberty (September 2, 2014 8:19 am)

 

September 2, 2014 8:27 am  #1755


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

I understand what you mean and there might be some truth to it. They may feel under pressure when they hear that so many people have these expectations. But on the other hand the expectations are not there without a reason. I am not talking about the I'm-not-gay thing but all the other hints they served us in series 3 and which cannot be explained away as a joke. Just look at Sherlock's face on the dance floor and on the tarmac and his return from death for John and tell me that this is "mocking". 

But ... they love each other, don't they?  An awful lot can be explained by that. 

We all know Sherlock avoids love and sentiment, but he seems to put friendship somewhere outside that.   His romantic feelings are channelled into John.   I'm sure many of us have done simliar at some point in our lives, with a friend.  I know I have.  Perhaps, Sherlock's feelings seem more extreme because he doesn't allow another outlet.  But they don't seem sexual, to me, anyway.  

I was prepared to have my mind changed in S3, but it hasn't happened yet.  Maybe in S4 .

 

September 2, 2014 8:36 am  #1756


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

I think I do know what you mean, Mrshouse, but I don't think that's what Martin is saying in this particular interview.   I have ventured beyond this forum now and then, and he's absolutely right - there are people claiming that anybody who doesn't see Johnlock is homophobic.  That's quite a serious insult.   It would be offensive regardless of anything in the actors' personal lives. 

 
Yes, that might just be it. I do hope so, at least. As I said, I'm mostly on this forum and we are all sooooo very civilized.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 3, 2014 1:27 pm  #1757


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

My favourite quite from Amanda Abbington so far:

“We’ve found a hus- er, a wife for Sher- um … Watson.” 

(source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piZdrK-858Q&feature=youtu.be)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 3, 2014 1:45 pm  #1758


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

My favourite quite from Amanda Abbington so far:

“We’ve found a hus- er, a wife for Sher- um … Watson.” 

(source:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piZdrK-858Q&feature=youtu.be)

 
AA thinking:  "Bugger that was close.  Moffat murder me with a cricket bat if I let that slip."


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

September 4, 2014 11:42 pm  #1759


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree with what Liberty says.

I think that the Johnlock thing is becoming more and more annoying in the way that if you don't agree with johnlock you are homophobic, and you clearly don't understand the show. You can't have "fun" with that anymore.

And I think that's what is different now than in 2011. Because in 2011 people were like "Johnlock or not, I love this show and I have fun imagining Johnlock... we have fun and it's ok, you don't see it? All right..." There was memes about Mrs Hudson shipping it more than we do and we were laghing at it and we were having fun.

It has become (for some people): "if the show dosen't end up showing Sherlock and John having hot sex in the shower, it's because the BBC are just a bunch of queerbaiting homophobic piece of shit... they are mocking the LGBT community!!!" "If the creators don't come up with the version I imaginated, I will burn my DVD's and send them crap by mail!"  and I'm just barely exagerating! And that is totally disturbing!

I read Johnlock fanfiction, but I see it as it is... a fanfiction. I have fun with Johnlock but some people don't have "fun" anymore. It has become a political statement witch is: Sherlock has to be about John and Sherlock being gay. Because if they don't end up beeing gay, the whole show is queerbaiting. You are either with me or an homophobe.

For a time, I was reading The-loudest-subtext-in-television tumblr, and some others. I tougth it was fun. There was good metas. It didn't seems like it was taken too seriously. But I was wrong, I was so wrong. You totally can't disagree with her/him/them (i don't know and I don't care). Johnlock is the most serious thing in the whole universe. And if you disagree with her/his/their analyse of a particular scene, you are wrong. Not just wrong, you are a stupid dumbass, homophobic asshole... nothing less. So I stay as far as possible from this tumblr... and a lot of others...

The show, Sherlock, is not about the show anymore, it's about Johnlock and how it will become Johnlock. And I think it's becoming weighty for some fans, for the actors, creators, writers and everyone else working on the show. And even more if it's not what they had planned for it. I was (and I still am), perfectly ok with the platonic thing between John and Sherlock (They love each other of course, but as friends). And I had (and still have) no reason to believe that they are all lying. And if if Sherlock and John end up together at the end I will still be completely ok with that. (but for some reason no, I won't, but yes, but that's for an other post...)

Last edited by Kenogami (September 4, 2014 11:43 pm)

 

September 5, 2014 4:25 am  #1760


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Dear Kenogami,
I hope what you wrote does not show how you feel here on the forum. We are quite some Johnlockers here, more than in 2011 I think, and there are some intense debates going on. But nobody is called a homophob or a stupid dumbass.
But then, you probably wouldn't have posted something if you felt uncomfortable here.

Hope you'll enjoy being around!


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

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