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August 13, 2014 3:43 pm  #41


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

SusiGo wrote:

But why should he play act for his brother? Of course he could have told Mycroft that it was Irene's body but why on earth should he pretend to be sad and take the cigarette?
 

Not just Why?, but also How? Mycroft is better in deducing than Sherlock. How is Sherlock supposed to pretend in Mycroft's company?


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 13, 2014 3:49 pm  #42


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Good point. Mycroft would have seen through him like he usually does. 

(Or Mycroft knows that he is meant to believe Sherlock believes Irene is dead so that Mycroft can tell John to make John believe … I better stop here)

Last edited by SusiGo (August 13, 2014 3:50 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 13, 2014 4:37 pm  #43


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Well, Mycroft almost tricks Sherlock into getting the phone.  It's not really the photos of the Royal that are the issue, and I'm sure Mycroft knows that but he doesn't tell Sherlock what he thinks is there.   Later on, Mycroft tells Sherlock to stay away from Irene, and Sherlock does not seem to be pleased at all about that.  So I think there is an element of brotherly rivalry and rebellion going on.  I think Sherlock does manage to fool Mycroft this time (because he asks John to keep an eye on him), although I'm not certain.  (Possibly Mycroft plays along - it's odd that he doesn't go all out looking for the phone.  Also odd that he doesn't question how Sherlock knows Irene would be dead.  I think that maybe he knows Sherlock has the phone and that he's probably the best person to get into it).  Sherlock also seems to fool Mycroft at the end too, when he saves Irene (although again, it's possible that Mycroft knows and goes along with it).  There's definitely a possibility that Mycroft knows when to step back and let Sherlock get on with his stuff.  (He misjudges the situation though, and apologises at the end for that).

Anyway, I just don't think it's possible that Sherlock wouldn't be able identify the body, and once you've eliminated the impossible ...  If I watch the scenes with that in mind, they do seem to fit. 

I agree about Sherlock continually asking forgiveness from John.  I just don't like it, for a number of reasons. 

Sherlock has already called John his friend in THOB, so that is established, and he's got to be John's best friend - who else could be?  John barely sees Mike, and only sees Greg with Sherlock.  The best friend bit is obvious.  The truth is that he's more than a best friend. 

     Thread Starter
 

August 13, 2014 5:31 pm  #44


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Well, of course he is more than a best friend. We have whole threads about this subject. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 13, 2014 5:40 pm  #45


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

SusiGo wrote:

Well, of course he is more than a best friend. We have whole threads about this subject. 

 
Otherwise known as the place of ultimate happiness. 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

August 13, 2014 5:43 pm  #46


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Liberty wrote:

Sherlock has already called John his friend in THOB, so that is established, and he's got to be John's best friend - who else could be?  John barely sees Mike, and only sees Greg with Sherlock.  The best friend bit is obvious.   

 
Yes. Maybe for us and everybody else. But not for him.
Oh, Mattlocked, stop here.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 13, 2014 5:48 pm  #47


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Mattlocked wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

"Here´s Sherlock manipulating/ playing the sociopath again".
 

 
Any special scene in mind or the whole episode?

Nothing that has to do with his feelings towards John, they are very genuine I think. But for example how he made Archie cooperate or how he first made his audience think he is about to give the worst wedding speech ever just to turn it around into the most moving thing on earth that had even John nearly crying etc.. might have been deliberate. (I didn´t mean manipulate in a negative sense, just that he wasn´t as.. naive? clumsy..? about it all as he seemed to be at first view..)

I read tons of meta and interviews with people involved and I realize this is probably "wrong" (as in not intended), but I enjoy it a lot more this way so I´m gonna stick with it.  
 

 

August 13, 2014 5:51 pm  #48


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Exactly. This is just his funny old head. I think he had started to learn about coping with feelings and then he had to do the two-year stunt leaving John behind. He regressed, just like Benedict said. He thought he could come back and just continue his former life not realising that people had mourned him and taken his "death" very badly. He is confronted with John's grief, his anger, and the fact he has moved on. All this is not easy for Sherlock, especially not for him. 
For me this is one of the most beautiful things about the series - the show about a detective. A detective who is going on a journey, who is changing continually. But I somehow get the impression that some people do not want him to change. They do not want to accept that Sherlock in series 3 is different, sometimes weaker, less brilliant, more man than genius. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 13, 2014 5:53 pm  #49


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Zatoichi wrote:

I read tons of meta and interviews with people involved and I realize this is probably "wrong" (as in not intended), but I enjoy it a lot more this way so I´m gonna stick with it.  
 

Funny. I enjoy S3 because for me, Sherlock is becoming less and less the maipulating sociopath he pretends to be in the beginning.

Edit: Just realized that I cross posted with Susi. Only she found better words to explain how I feel.

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 13, 2014 5:55 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 13, 2014 5:55 pm  #50


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Schmiezi wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

I read tons of meta and interviews with people involved and I realize this is probably "wrong" (as in not intended), but I enjoy it a lot more this way so I´m gonna stick with it.  
 

Funny. I enjoy S3 because for me, Sherlock is becoming less and less the maipulating sociopath he pretends to be in the beginning.

Edit: Just realized that I cross posted with Susi. Only she found better words to explain how I feel.

Where can I sign this? Not the edit, the thing you said before. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

August 13, 2014 6:02 pm  #51


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

IMO Sherlock is a brilliant visual observer, good to understand puzzles in words but pretty rubbish to interpret the emotions behind the words, which we normally pick (some more easy, some less). So when John tells him in TEH that he is the best man he ever know, John means a lot more with thte words but Sherlock understand just that, he doesn't see all the emotional luggage. He relys on John to tell him what emotions his words are provoking ("Not good?" "a bit not good"). He needs to feel Irene's pulse to know that she fell for him? John had seen it at the first glance. 

When John ask him about the best man, John expects from Sherlock that he picks the clues, but no, he has to finish the sentence. It may be that Sherlock has no idea how one feel as a "best friend", if he hasn't have any close friends before, he has no comparation grade to update in his mind someone from friend to best friend and to have expectations to be upgraded by someone to "best friend".

I don't feel that he plays himself down or that he has low esteem. I feel more that he has not the experience - he thought that feelings are just in his way and he tryed to avoid them, now he discovers that they play an importnat role. He didn't wanted emotional bonds so each emotional bond he now experience, be it John, be it Irene, is for him a learning process. For him is easier to fake a relationship than to really be in one. When he fakes he goes for all cliche and what he read in the books, but when he have to asssert his relationship with the other people, he has his problems. 

 

August 13, 2014 6:07 pm  #52


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

SusiGo wrote:

But I somehow get the impression that some people do not want him to change. They do not want to accept that Sherlock in series 3 is different, sometimes weaker, less brilliant, more man than genius. 
 

More man than genius sounds great, just that TSoT left more the impression of a vulnerable (and quite cluesless) kid with me if I take it at face value. That´s kind of a bit too much for my taste.. I´m fine with people loving it though. And no, I don´t want him to change. To grow, yes, to develop emotionally, yes. But I liked S1 and S2 Sherlock quite much, fundamental change would really disappoint me.
 

 

August 13, 2014 6:15 pm  #53


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I have my problem with  Sherlock development in TSoT , because is too much, too quick. We still have in TEH the arrogant Sherlock, clueless at John's pain range and triking him to believe that he will die because of the bomb and in the next episode, he is all over emotional. 

If he chneges, i want to seen it on screen, not to think that between TEH and TSot he had realised what his fall mean for the others.

And this quick development in his character makes me think that we will get only S4 ans S5, as i don't think that the writers will get further with the serie when Sherlock's arch is completed. We are in S3 and both Sherlock and John told their love, establish the "best friends" thing. Now, where we will can go further too much? Sherlock still has a few steps to do, perhaps really falling in love and havind a relationship if the writers want one in any way, John has also to battle his demons, but after that?

 

August 13, 2014 6:26 pm  #54


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

They'll go on for as long as eveytbody wants to and can make it.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 13, 2014 6:31 pm  #55


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

I don't have this feeling. If these series were a detective one, like Midsomer murders, would have been true. But is a series about a detective and he can develop only to a degree.... 

 

August 13, 2014 6:31 pm  #56


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Zatoichi wrote:

Mattlocked wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

"Here´s Sherlock manipulating/ playing the sociopath again".
 

 
Any special scene in mind or the whole episode?

Nothing that has to do with his feelings towards John, they are very genuine I think. But for example how he made Archie cooperate or how he first made his audience think he is about to give the worst wedding speech ever just to turn it around into the most moving thing on earth that had even John nearly crying etc.. might have been deliberate. (I didn´t mean manipulate in a negative sense, just that he wasn´t as.. naive? clumsy..? about it all as he seemed to be at first view..)


 

I see and agree. The "worst wedding speech at the beginning" was surely deliberate to make everyone roll their eyes and think: I knew it, of course he is bad at this, the smartass.
But then he turns 180 degrees and shows the "new" Sherlock.
And yes, it would be nice for me, too, if he would've only pretended being that naive, clumsy. But maybe he really is at that moment, because of what he lived through during the last 2 years and how he was "welcomed" when he returned. Not at all as he had imagined.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 13, 2014 6:35 pm  #57


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

What do you all mean?
Best speech ever.
I stood up and cheered at Sherlock's views on marraige and religion which match my own!

Last edited by besleybean (August 13, 2014 6:35 pm)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

August 13, 2014 6:41 pm  #58


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

A lovely light wrote:

We are in S3 and both Sherlock and John told their love, establish the "best friends" thing. Now, where we will can go further too much? Sherlock still has a few steps to do, perhaps really falling in love and havind a relationship if the writers want one in any way, John has also to battle his demons, but after that?

Um, yes, we have this OTHER thread that kind of answers that question ...
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=4862


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

August 13, 2014 6:56 pm  #59


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

Schmiezi wrote:

A lovely light wrote:

We are in S3 and both Sherlock and John told their love, establish the "best friends" thing. Now, where we will can go further too much? Sherlock still has a few steps to do, perhaps really falling in love and havind a relationship if the writers want one in any way, John has also to battle his demons, but after that?

Um, yes, we have this OTHER thread that kind of answers that question ...
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=4862

Muhahahhaaaa....

Sadly, the more a rewatch S3, the less i see it being there or happening in the future. 

 

August 13, 2014 7:13 pm  #60


Re: Some things that are puzzling me

A lovely light wrote:

Schmiezi wrote:

A lovely light wrote:

We are in S3 and both Sherlock and John told their love, establish the "best friends" thing. Now, where we will can go further too much? Sherlock still has a few steps to do, perhaps really falling in love and havind a relationship if the writers want one in any way, John has also to battle his demons, but after that?

Um, yes, we have this OTHER thread that kind of answers that question ...
http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=4862

Muhahahhaaaa....

Sadly, the more a rewatch S3, the less i see it being there or happening in the future. 

But S3 is simply drowning in Johnlock!  TSoT is the most johnlock episode that ever johnlocked! 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

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