BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



October 5, 2017 8:54 pm  #21


Re: Eurus Holmes

SusiGo wrote:

For me it is quite the other way around - for me Eurus does not make sense. For me, the real tension and suspense was always between Sherlock and Mycroft. This is where I thought the mystery would be - or in the relationship with the parents. Why do we suddenly need a non-Canon sister for the story to make sense? I must admit, they lost me there. It also destroys the Moriarty magic if he was a sort of tool, this is at least how I feel about it. For me, the Sherlock-Mycroft and Sherlock-Jim dichotomies were full of promise and I really do not understand why they needed a larger than life, cleverer than anyone else sister in the story. 


 

Yeah I agree with you here.

But at the same time I see and agree with what others say that the story doesn't make sense if Eurus didn't exist.
My own current solution is that they created her as a real character but set up the story, the place and the writing in a way that you could see it as a metaphor. (Eurus=Sherlock or what Sherlock could have become). This resulted maybe in an unusual and more sloppy writing/storytelling.

Interesting discussion. I have been following it and love that there is some discussion going on here.

This is maybe the opportunity for another related theme. I just wonder if there is place in here for it or better in another thread.
It is, that for some months now, I more and more fail to understand Eurus' intentions.

Last edited by Rache (October 5, 2017 9:04 pm)


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

October 6, 2017 10:58 am  #22


Re: Eurus Holmes

besleybean wrote:

Honestly, what is wrong with the story we were given?
....

Seriously? Paintings shedding bloody tears, people being blown out of windows without getting a scratch (vampires?), a child locked up in solitary for 25 years grows up to function perfectly (in a practical sense), a prisoner can "enslave" a whole high-security prison without a single person noticing anything is wrong, Mycroft being in complete denial, the bloody Strad (though in a strange way to me it makes more sense for Euros to have one than Sherlock), what's that strange "Sherrinford" message ono the boat meant to be, how did nobody notice that three of the prison guards were missing - those are just the things that spontaneously come to mind.

If I went over the transcripts, I could probably argue with most lines from the beginning of the fourth season to the end!

besleybean wrote:

...Sherlock personally suffers loss at the hands of his psychotic little sister, which makes him the way he is.
He is reunited her and heals her.
I love it.....

If you reduce it like that, yes, I see the attraction. But a good premise alone does not make for a good show, in my opinion...

     Thread Starter
 

October 6, 2017 6:20 pm  #23


Re: Eurus Holmes

It's not just a premise...it's the fulfillment and works for me.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

October 7, 2017 10:23 am  #24


Re: Eurus Holmes

Rache wrote:

This is maybe the opportunity for another related theme. I just wonder if there is place in here for it or better in another thread.
It is, that for some months now, I more and more fail to understand Eurus' intentions.

I agree. I have tried to come up with an explanation of her intentions but I still fail to see it. What we are told to believe is basically this: 

Moriarty started his Sherlock campaign before the beginning of ASiP and independently of anything Eurus may have planned. About the time of ASiB Christmas Eurus got interested in Moriarty and told Mycroft to bring him to her as a Christmas present. From then on we get all these actions by Moriarty and Eurus: provoking Sherlock up to the fall, the Miss Me video, luring John away from Mary, the whole Culverton Smith case, the murder of the real therapist, the bomb attack on 221b, the killing of the governor and his wife, the killing of the three Garridebs, provoking Sherlock to murder either his brother or his best friend … right?

But for what? For a hug? I really do not get it. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 7, 2017 11:15 am  #25


Re: Eurus Holmes

@Kittyhawk and @SusiGo

Completely agree. This out- of- canon -bloody- sister-story is absolutely disappointing and ruined the show.

Last edited by DramaQueen (October 7, 2017 11:16 am)


__________________________________________________

Men should be what they seem, 
Or those that be not, would they might seem none!

http://i66.tinypic.com/v3jd5i.jpg


 
 

October 7, 2017 12:56 pm  #26


Re: Eurus Holmes

Some thoughts: 

So I stumbled upon this question. 

Is there a connection between Mary and Eurus?

We never see them actually meet, at least not while both of them are alive. And yet there is this: 

At the end of TST Mary tells Sherlock to go to hell, get himself into danger, take on a villain, and thereby save John Watson’s life. Sherlock heeds the advice as far as hell and danger are concerned, the villain less so. That is, until Faith aka Eurus appears in his flat and serves him the exact case Mary has been talking about on a silver tray: big villain, influential, highly dangerous, kills lots of people. 

Question: What was Eurus’s plan? If she wanted to meet her brother, she could have come up with any random case but she delivered exactly what he needed at the time. Plus she has insight knowledge about CS being a killer, his MO, etc. However, at this point only three people knew about the DVD: Mary, Sherlock, and Mrs Hudson.

Not let us assume for a moment that Eurus is not clairvoyant and has not bugged the flat Moriarty style. Then she must have had another reason to present Sherlock with this very case. Thoughts?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 7, 2017 7:24 pm  #27


Re: Eurus Holmes

SusiGo wrote:

Some thoughts: 

So I stumbled upon this question. 

Is there a connection between Mary and Eurus?

We never see them actually meet, at least not while both of them are alive. And yet there is this: 

At the end of TST Mary tells Sherlock to go to hell, get himself into danger, take on a villain, and thereby save John Watson’s life. Sherlock heeds the advice as far as hell and danger are concerned, the villain less so. That is, until Faith aka Eurus appears in his flat and serves him the exact case Mary has been talking about on a silver tray: big villain, influential, highly dangerous, kills lots of people. 

Question: What was Eurus’s plan? If she wanted to meet her brother, she could have come up with any random case but she delivered exactly what he needed at the time. Plus she has insight knowledge about CS being a killer, his MO, etc. However, at this point only three people knew about the DVD: Mary, Sherlock, and Mrs Hudson.

Not let us assume for a moment that Eurus is not clairvoyant and has not bugged the flat Moriarty style. Then she must have had another reason to present Sherlock with this very case. Thoughts?

Oh ok, I thought you were going to suggest the idea that Mary=Euros (or Euros=Mary). :D
I got excited by that idea while reading through your post, but even before I had finished reading, I thought of too many impossibilities like most important of all, we saw Mary die so how could it be? Euros is still alive.
But on the other hand, some things fit amzingly well. For example we see Mary embodying different identities in T6T. She is a master of disguise. Just like Euros. And John sees Mary in his therapists house. Why? Maybe because the therapist is remembering him very much of Mary. (No wonder if therapist=Euros=Mary) ;)

If you think about it, it's funny. OMG

Last edited by Rache (October 7, 2017 7:25 pm)


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

October 7, 2017 7:29 pm  #28


Re: Eurus Holmes

Well possibly I'm the only person int he world to do so, but personally I love the secret troubled sister and as I keep saying, more so that hero Sherlock heals her and reunites the family.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

October 7, 2017 8:26 pm  #29


Re: Eurus Holmes

@Rache: Yes, there are definitely parallels between Eurus and Mary, especially where the different identities are concerned. But for me the similarities between Sherlock and Eurus are more convincing. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 7, 2017 8:54 pm  #30


Re: Eurus Holmes

I would expect them to be so similar: siblings so close in age and(to borrow from John), both having 'the deduction thing'.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

October 8, 2017 10:14 am  #31


Re: Eurus Holmes

Another thought: So we are to accept that so many innocent people come to harm - the therapist, the governor, his wife, the three Garridebs, just to name a few - while the family who imprisoned Eurus remains basically untouched? What sort of world is this where at least six murders happen and the perpetrator is rewarded by visits from her family and playing the violin with her brother? Sure, Eurus remains in prison but it leaves my sense of justice very dissatisfied. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 8, 2017 1:31 pm  #32


Re: Eurus Holmes

I think Euros expected Sherlock to shoot Mycroft. Why she didn't kill him herself later - hmm, probably Mark Gatiss didn't want to write himself out of the show - otherwise he'd have to make video messages... (and, for accuracy's sake: One of the Garridebs and the Governor were guilty... Not that killing only 4 innocent people is "better")

Btw., were you aware that The Blind Banker was directed by Euros Lyn? I'm wondering whether she did anything to piss Mofftiss off...

     Thread Starter
 

October 8, 2017 8:01 pm  #33


Re: Eurus Holmes

@SusiGo
Your dismay is totally  understandable.
I guess, Mycroft  caused (again) that she was declared   "non compos mentis" and thus not criminally responsible.


__________________________________________________

Men should be what they seem, 
Or those that be not, would they might seem none!

http://i66.tinypic.com/v3jd5i.jpg


 
 

October 8, 2017 8:45 pm  #34


Re: Eurus Holmes

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but why exactly did Eurus flirt with John? If they had wanted to show that John was dissatisfied or unhappy in his marriage, they could have shown him with any woman. But looking at it from Eurus's POV - what was her purpose in approaching John? The same goes for Elsa, the therapist. Why John? Because she wanted to repeat the childhood pattern by targeting her brother's best friend? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 8, 2017 10:08 pm  #35


Re: Eurus Holmes

Good question.  What, indeed, did she want with John, and why did she reveal herself to him the way she did and shoot him with a tranquilizer gun?
 

 

October 8, 2017 11:22 pm  #36


Re: Eurus Holmes

Yes, I wish I had an explanation for that.

Some thoughts anyway.

Maybe it was just like with young Euros again. She wanted to get in contact with Sherlock and his best friend. Now it is John, in childhood it was Victor. And she wanted to "play" with them. Because she is damaged and so highly intelligent, she doesn't understand how to become friends and doesn't know emotions and feelings. She only knows the "theories". For example she knows that flirting with a man as a much younger woman will sometimes lead to the man falling in love with her. Or playing the wounded, lonely, suicidal, shy and nice woman will get attention from someone as observant as Sherlock (not sure this would have worked with season 1/2/3 Sherlock, though^^). Or that she can get very close to people by being a therapist. She wanted to "play" with them, just like she wanted it as a kid, but doesn't understand how. But then, why stopping it and lure them into Sherrinford all of a sudden? And "shoot" John? I don't know. Btw: Any idea if she WANTED John to pick up on that line she let slip as the therapist about "the other one"? Or was it a mistake she made? I somehow think she meant to. She was quite prepared with the key and the gun. Maybe she wanted to find out how far she can go unil someone (John) will notice something. The same with the Miss me note she gave Sherlock.
What also is curious, is, that we don't know exactly what happened afer she "shot" John. I assume she immediateley went back into Sherrinford and waited there for them. However to that point, she can't know that Sherlock picks up the piece of paper again, examines it again and finds the last clue. She must assume that Sherlock is still confused about his meeting wih "Faith" and to that point she must be counting on John to tell Sherlock everything about her revelation as his sister. She must think, that Sherlock believes John, because otherwise he wouldn't check ou Sherrinford. And how much did she plan in Mycroft in her plan? Thinking of the rooms in Sherrinford, she wanted him there as well....

Or maybe the "simple" reason why she got in contact with John and Sherlock was because she wanted to get to know their characters, get some information on them, what they would or would not do, testing them before she lured them into Sherrinford.

Or, wow, another idea just occured to me!!! What if she was doing all these things beforehand because she needed Sherlock and John united together, just the two of them as best mates, for her "end game" in Sherrinford. (Whatever that endgame is supposed to be... wanting to be saved by Sherlock!?). Ok, so maybe somehow she needed them as closely together as possible. How to achieve that? (Remember: How her highly intelligent brain will think how to achieve that? A brain that is so intelligent that can't understand emotions properly, so that she is acting odd, from our point of view.) She needs to separate John and Mary. If she can break their marriage by being John's flirt, maybe John gets divorced and joins Sherlock again. Only after this plan, which doesn't work, and after Mary's death she appears as Faith and the therapist. What is she doing as the therapist? I think she clearly tries to help John out of his misery AND tries to nudge John back to Sherlock. Remember when she asks if it's possible that John simply hasn't noticed Sherlock would want to get in contact with him?
Somehow she is doing the same thing as Faith with Sherlock: Presenting him with a case (the "Save John Watson" case) that would lead to Sherlock's and John's reunion.
Ok, it gets confusing again during that last therapy session where she is revealing herself... following this idea of mine, the only explanation can be that she is convinced now, that Sherlock and John are getting well along with each other again.

What this could mean for TFP and her further intentions, well, I'm not sure...http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png

Just my late and very tired thoughts (need to get into bed). But I have more things on my mind to discuss, that is certain.

Last edited by Rache (October 8, 2017 11:31 pm)


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

October 9, 2017 6:35 am  #37


Re: Eurus Holmes

Interesting thoughts, Rache.   I didn't feel there was any intention to actually have an affair with John, but in the end, John's interaction with E brings him and Sherlock closer together.  And when Sherlock is looking to put himself in danger to save John, Euros sets him up with Culverton.  I do think it was probably always her plan to use John in the same way that she used Victor - it's even the same well and the same puzzle. 

 

October 9, 2017 7:09 am  #38


Re: Eurus Holmes

Liberty, so you would say that Eurus setting up Sherlock with CS and thereby fulfilling Mary's post-mortem task for Sherlock is pure coincidence? I find that hard to believe. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 9, 2017 7:36 am  #39


Re: Eurus Holmes

I wish to add to the discussion, my slight concern about any sense of misogyny.
It sometimes appears to me that mainly the female characters are given a hard time.
Eurus and Mary seem to be held up to higher standards and more is expected of them than of the heroes.
But that aside, would be interesting if Eurus and Mary were in cahoots- though personally I see absolutely no evidence of this.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

October 9, 2017 4:43 pm  #40


Re: Eurus Holmes

I don't think it was coincidence, but I think their goals aligned.   Mary wanted to save John.  And Eurus wanted to save herself by getting Sherlock to save John.  I think I agree with Rache about Eurus using John to get to Sherlock.  We're not told what the worst is that John has to be saved from, but perhaps suicide was a possibility.   It wouldn't have suited Eurus' purpose to have John dead at that point: and perhaps the role of therapist was actually trying to help to avoid that (as well as to get some inside information, and the fun of the revelation). 

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum