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January 24, 2017 7:20 am  #21


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Well Eurus tries, but happily fails and I like to think in  the process, she allows Sherlock to save her.


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January 24, 2017 8:52 am  #22


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

I found "a man's perspective" funny, because the scene was written by two men!   It is from a male perspective! 

I don't think Molly creeps Sherlock out.  In the "having a lot of sex" scene, it's kind of funny because it's quite an inappropriate comment (and Sherlock is usually the one to make those) - Sherlock just looks appropriately awkward.  It's also funny because Sherlock has brought up the subject of Tom (I love that it takes him a few seconds to remember the name!) to try to move the conversation away from the really awkward one they'd been having about Molly's drinking!  

I was thinking about the scene though - it's interesting, because in the grand scheme of things, asking somebody to say something which might expose and embarrass them, is a lot less of a big deal than say, shooting somebody dead, which is what the other challenges tend to be about.    It's a minor thing, really, and there's clearly no dilemma, no choosing - he thinks that if he doesn't get Molly to say the words she'll die, so he has to do it by whatever means necessary.   It's also not even that much of an admission from Molly.  She's shown throughout the series how she feels about Sherlock, and my feeling was that they both kind of knew that. 

But anyway, for another male perspective (!), there are some interesting comments in the Behind the Scenes doc.  Mark Gatiss says that we are not supposed to be sure if Sherlock means "I love you" or not.   And Benedict says that Sherlock hasn't yet made the decision about whether he loves Molly or not.   Mark also says something about Sherlock smashing the coffin being the fury he feels at being manipulated - that Eurus knows which buttons to push to make him emotional.

I don't completely agree - I think Sherlock is happily friends with Molly and cares about her a lot, but isn't making a decision about whether he loves her romantically.  But I can see how it could be seen that way, and people could see it open for them having a relationship after. 

 

January 24, 2017 10:21 am  #23


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

SusiGo wrote:

Eurus forces Sherlock back into his old cold-hearted persona he has fought hard to leave behind. 

​I agree with that. The "old" Sherlock wouldn't have minded forcing Molly into admitting her feelings for less than that (i.e in TGG, if Jim had sent him a text saying that if he wanted to play a game with him, he'd have to make Molly say "I love you" to him, I'm sure Sherlock would have thought of a sly way to do so and without any scruple, just like he manipulated Janine).

​I don't really like the idea of "New" and "Old" Sherlock, as he is the same man, but it makes things easier to explain so i'll stick to that

When he is smashing the coffin, my first thought was that the "new" Sherlock was angry because he had (involuntarily) hurt Molly, who he considers as a close friend and that the "usual" Sherlock was angry simply because he had lost.

​We know how playful he is but we also know how much he hates to lose! (in TGG, when the old woman is shot and that 12 persons are killed in the explosion, Sherlock seems more concerned about losing the game than about the deaths of those persons "Well, obviously, I lost that round.")
 


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Just like old times...


http://i.imgur.com/lEZJjZh.jpg?1
 
 

January 24, 2017 11:16 am  #24


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Just my view, but I think it's a front even back in TGG.  He does care about the lives, but doesn't show it.  The game excites him, but it's also the way to save lives - and I think TFP brings that right round, showing that his motivation comes from failing at the game (and so failing to save a life) in the first place.   What drives him to play the game is much more emotional than cerebral.  I don't think there's anything really cold-hearted about the Molly scene. He's motivated by wanting to save her, save the girl on the plane and other casualties.

In ASIB, I also think he genuinely feels bad for hurting Molly, in a parallel scene where he exposes her feelings for him. 

 

January 24, 2017 12:13 pm  #25


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

I do not think for a second that Sherlock is cold-hearted in that scene. But one might argue that he is forced to act cold-heartedly, at least on the surface, because he knows that Molly loves him and that he does not love her back. So far it has always been "desperately unspoken" on Molly's side and now she is forced to say it out loud. Which is hard for her and Sherlock knows this. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 24, 2017 9:13 pm  #26


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

WhoIWantToBe wrote:

ugh I hate these 'from a man's perspective' type posts, because honestly it just feels like 'a man said it, therefore its more valid'.(...)

Believe mi, it is so entirely not my way of thinking, that I even never thought, anybody can understand me like that. Do men think different? Of course. Can it be interesting? Yes. Should the man's thought be more important, just because it is a man's thought? ROFL... That's not why I linked " ' I love you': a man's perspective".
However, Liberty is right, the scene was written by two men. How they think, can be noteworthy.


SusiGo wrote:

(...) In a way, Eurus forces Sherlock back into his old cold-hearted persona he has fought hard to leave behind. 

I agree, but I also believe, she does it, because she knows, how terrible it is for him. There is no real risk, she could make him stay the man, he was earlier. Not again, when he has feelings again.



But there is one "detail": how in Sherlock's opinion Molly feels about him.

In HLV she is so important, that we can forget, we can see not the real Molly, but her representation in Sherlock's MP. The real Molly slapped Sherlock's face, and soon afterwards disappeared. What happened later between them, we can only assume. Enough to think about Janine's press stories - what was Molly's reaction?

In TAB Molly-in-Sherlocl's-mind is:
- A person, who hates him (consistent with her anger in HLV, but TAB takes place months later!).
- A woman, who simulates being a man (Sherlock usually kept treating her like a friend, and even more - like a male friend, who sometimes starts to behave like a woman, with no real reason. In TSoT the way, Molly talks about having sex with Tom, is awkward for Sherlock. But if they were two (usual) men, It could sound much more natural. Was she trying to adapt?)
In his MP Sherlock does not recognize "Hooper" as a female, but imaginary John (who is the part of Sherlock) has no doubts.
In the end of TAB Sherlock talks about "... the women we have ignored..." and then we can see Molly.

In T6T and TLD she is also not really approving. Even in the end of T6T, handing Sherlock John's letter, Molly looks only moderately sorry, or sympathetic. 
...
Perhaps Sherlock considered her as a woman, who was attracted to him, but did not accept him really because his own fault... Or himself as the person, who does not deserve her acceptance?
In this case his "just friendship", or "loving her, but not romantically", may look different. 

     Thread Starter
 

January 24, 2017 9:16 pm  #27


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

I don't believe Sherlock ever thinks Molly hates him.
I think he's always known she loves him.
His difficulty is trying to be the best of friends with he can, when he knows it's painful for her.


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January 24, 2017 9:30 pm  #28


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

besleybean wrote:

I don't believe Sherlock ever thinks Molly hates him.
I think he's always known she loves him.
His difficulty is trying to be the best of friends with he can, when he knows it's painful for her.

I do not say that.
Molly is not the "Hooper" in Sherlock's mind. Hooper may symbolize some part of Sherlock's personality, like Moriarty - selfdestrucion desire, and John - his self-protective attitude.
(What was Hooper? Something romantic?)

But if Molly in MP became something so unfriendly, that's because Sherlock is convinced, the real Molly also developed unfriendly feelings towards him.

Last edited by Naavy (January 24, 2017 9:31 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

January 24, 2017 9:33 pm  #29


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

I really don't think Molly ever felt unfriendly to Sherlock.
She was concerned about his drug taking and worried about him letting down his family and John and Mrs H...more than for her own part.


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January 24, 2017 9:42 pm  #30


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

There was much more, just remember: "MOLLY: No idea why people think you’re incapable of human emotion."
Ariane DeVere transcript
...Or how she repeated John's "Anybody". 



 

     Thread Starter
 

January 24, 2017 9:45 pm  #31


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Molly's beautiful TRF discussion with Sherlock, showed me that she knew exactly what he was and she regrets it, but accepts it.


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January 24, 2017 10:00 pm  #32


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

besleybean wrote:

Molly's beautiful TRF discussion with Sherlock, showed me that she knew exactly what he was and she regrets it, but accepts it.

Yes, but accepts him as a friend, and nothing more.
This is not very visible, but in TEH Sherlock invited her for a dinner! Of course, it was Sherlock style invitation (first a murder, to brighten the mood ;) , than talking about chips...). But I believe, it was his best that moment. And she refused! Only after that Sherlock "noticed" her ring.
She could understand it different, but for me there was sort of romantic context in this invitation.

Last edited by Naavy (January 24, 2017 10:08 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

January 24, 2017 11:17 pm  #33


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

The "male perspective" was interesting, but I do not agree that he was expressing romantic love for Molly.  Much of this has already been said here, but I think Sherlock genuinely respects Molly especially as the seasons progress.  You sort of get a sense that he is using her position in the morgue to procure bodies and other things in Study in Pink, but, over time I think he values her more and that he is truly indebted to her for her help in faking his death, and he knows how valuable a friend she is. 
I think he does love her as a friend, and I think his second "I love you" was a genuine expression of that love.  But I didn't get the impression that he thought of her romantically or sexually.  He was also trying desperately to save her life, but I think the emotion was real.
His smashing the coffin was in my opinion a combination of relief that she was spared and frustration that he was forced or manipulated by Eurus and that he may have hurt Molly.  It is also possible that he was upset by having to face such intense emotions and just needed an outlet to deal with emotions he has kept closed off for so long.
I don't think Eurus planned these scenarios to make Sherlock face individual emotions, though that is an interesting notion. 
Even though it wasn't shown, I'd like to think that Sherlock explained the situation to Molly afterwards and that they are still friends.


"Is that why you're calling yourself Greg?" 
"That's his name!"
"Is it?"
 

January 25, 2017 1:36 am  #34


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Me, too.
 

 

January 25, 2017 6:35 am  #35


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Steven has said as much.


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January 25, 2017 9:16 am  #36


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

NoShipSherlock wrote:

The "male perspective" was interesting, but I do not agree that he was expressing romantic love for Molly. Much of this has already been said here, but I think Sherlock genuinely respects Molly especially as the seasons progress. You sort of get a sense that he is using her position in the morgue to procure bodies and other things in Study in Pink, but, over time I think he values her more and that he is truly indebted to her for her help in faking his death, and he knows how valuable a friend she is.
I think he does love her as a friend, and I think his second "I love you" was a genuine expression of that love. But I didn't get the impression that he thought of her romantically or sexually. He was also trying desperately to save her life, but I think the emotion was real.
His smashing the coffin was in my opinion a combination of relief that she was spared and frustration that he was forced or manipulated by Eurus and that he may have hurt Molly. It is also possible that he was upset by having to face such intense emotions and just needed an outlet to deal with emotions he has kept closed off for so long.
I don't think Eurus planned these scenarios to make Sherlock face individual emotions, though that is an interesting notion.
Even though it wasn't shown, I'd like to think that Sherlock explained the situation to Molly afterwards and that they are still friends.

Of course, Sherlock do not love Molly (or Irene) romantically - he never allowed himself to feel this way!
He kept suppressing his emotions for years, in order to protect himself, until he met John (John, the best friend, not a love interest, was supposed to be harmless). But maybe in Molly's case protecting himself is not Sherlock's only motivation - he can also protect Molly, because she let him know (in TEH), he is not the right man for her (in the contrary to people like Tom), and he believes her in this case. 

But the "good bye" scene in TEH (what a wonderful acting of B.and L.) made me think, in this particular moment Sherlock's protective shield was very low, and he possibly was able to let himself feel something more to Molly (she was his friend, and he was both physically, and emotionally hurt, it had to be her!). Unfortunately she did not trust Sherlock (and she had her reasons).
She still does not trust him (no valid reasons this time), and she is able to see all his flaws. And he respects her "decision" to not love him, because he made the same decision too!
- just a digression...


NoShipSherlock wrote:

I don't think Eurus planned these scenarios to make Sherlock face individual emotions

She could not plan, but she did it!

NoShipSherlock wrote:

Even though it wasn't shown, I'd like to think that Sherlock explained the situation to Molly afterwards and that they are still friends.

We can see her, entering Sherlock's flat and smiling brightly, in the end of the episode. Therefore I believe, they are good friends again. 


     Thread Starter
 

January 25, 2017 5:43 pm  #37


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Quite so.


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January 25, 2017 6:13 pm  #38


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

As I understand, everybody considers Sherlock-Molly relation as friendly, because in Sherlock's opinion Molly is not good enough (I mean not enough beautiful, intelligent, exciting...) for him? And the opposite possibility (he believes, he is not good enough for her) is the wrong one?...

     Thread Starter
 

January 25, 2017 6:16 pm  #39


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

Wrong  as far as I'm concerned...Sherlock likes Molly, but just doesn't fancy her.
Molly recognises Sherlock doesn't really do relationships and if he did it wouldn't be with her.


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January 25, 2017 8:31 pm  #40


Re: "I love you": a man's perspective - oh, just read it... :D

I don't think it's a problem with Molly - it's just that he doesn't do romantic attraction, and is not looking for it.  Irene was the only one who broke through, and even then it's very, very controlled. 

 

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