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September 26, 2017 10:25 am  #421


Re: Questions about TFP

I just would not have thought that the same guy who watched his brother being beaten to a pulp (etc. at the start of TEH) would be so squeamish when it comes to killing what is clearly not an "innocent man". The Governor is directly responsible for the whole mess by having interacted with Euros against Mycroft's orders - though of course, you could also argue that Mycroft was responsible, because it was he who "woke Euros up" by having her meet Jim. (Another reason for me to dislike the guy.) And, by the way, the Governor begs Mycroft to shoot him. Mycroft's "I will not kill. I will not have blood on my hands" is simply selfish in this situation. In my opinion.

And it's a sign of complete denial: Mycroft is effectly saying that he does not have blood on his hands. Whereas it was pretty clear in TST that he sent soldiers into dangereous situations - he just replaced free-lancers by state-employed ones. Anybody seriously thinks that nobody ever died on subsequent missions? So, just like politicians everywhere, Mr. British Government is okay with other people doing the killing for him as long as he does not have to get his own hands dirty (he didn't try to stop John, did he? Instad of using that supposedly clever brain of his and coming up with a solution - I do wonder what would have happened, for example, if everybody had refused to play Euros's game right from the start - he just looks away.)

Though at least Mycroft refuses from the outset which has the advantage of being clear. Whereas John is being cruel: Acting as if he was going to kill the Governor, asking whether he's sure, waiting, making as if to kill him, waiting some more, making him kneel, talking some more, hesitating some more - and not doing it in the end. Which was pretty clear to me from the beginning, because it's much easier to kill by simply going through with it: Make the decision and kill the victim before it knows what happens - just like Sherlock did in HLV.  And that's what I mean by "knowing how to kill". Dithering for minutes (I haven't watched the timer, but it certainly seems like ages) is agony for the victim (just imagine yourself in the Governor's place!) and (I hope) for the would-be killer.

Change of subject: Why does Lestrade call Sherlock "a good one" at the end? The last time we've seen Lestrade he was being told that Sherlock had shot Magnussen in the face (oops, somebody should have told John about the "beyond top secret" classification) after Sherlock had tried to attack Smith with a scalpel while being drugged out of his mind. Does using the correct first name make up for that?
 

Last edited by Kittyhawk (October 11, 2017 12:17 pm)

 

September 26, 2017 10:55 am  #422


Re: Questions about TFP

I have no problem understanding how Mycroft thinks. There can be a huge difference, mentally, between watching someone else performing violent actions or even to kill someone, than to do it yourself. Ethically there might not be much difference, but in someone's head, the difference can be huge. 

Not to mention I think Mycroft also went through a softening process, just like Sherlock did. So he was different in TEH, just like Sherlock was.

As for John, he didn't delay the shooting to be cruel, but because he simply couldn't do it. He tried, but he wasn't able to. I mean absolutely no offense, but there is a huge difference between killing rabbits and executing an unarmed man in the head with a gun.

As for Lestrade, that is a call back to the very first episode where he says: "Sherlock is a great man. And one day, if we are very, very lucky, he might be a good one."

Last edited by Vhanja (September 26, 2017 10:56 am)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

September 27, 2017 6:51 am  #423


Re: Questions about TFP

Yes, the governor was at fault, but it seems that Eurus is extremely manipulative and was influencing him.  And anyway, I don't see any of them being happy with executing him.  

I think Mycroft's reaction was very human and believable.  There's a world of difference between ordering actions from your desk that might get people killed, and killing somebody who's standing in front of you (which I do think may have been one of the points being made - as we know there must be government people in the former category!).  I'm sure it's been said before that Mycroft doesn't do the legwork.  Maybe this is one of the reasons why.

John may have been a soldier, but he's in the situation of a prisoner having to kill another prisoner, rather than a soldier having to kill an adversary.  I do agree that it's more cruel to draw it out the way he does! 

There was also no guarantee that they could trust Eurus to spare the governor's wife. 
 

 

September 27, 2017 2:28 pm  #424


Re: Questions about TFP

Vhanja wrote:

...

As for Lestrade, that is a call back to the very first episode where he says: "Sherlock is a great man. And one day, if we are very, very lucky, he might be a good one."

Yes, I know, and it's a nice bookend. But I don't know why Lestrade now thinks that Sherlock is a good man! We've seen Sherlock threatening to shoot himself rather than his brother or John, we have seen him hugging Euros - but Lestrade hasn't!

I actually can understand Mycroft's actions - he is the rule rather than the exception, I fear - I'm just not impressed by them and feel confirmed in my dislike at first sight. On the other hand I'm somewhat disappointed - I would have respected him a lot more if he had said "Told you you wouldn't leave" and shot...

And as for John: He had no problem murdering the Cabbie and kicking the shit out of Sherlock, so he's not exactly an innocent little lamb. I think I go with Dark!John, because then he's pretty impressive in the episode: He told Sherlock how to get the truth out of Mycroft, he's the only one who recognizes the meaning of the Governor talking to Euros and he heroically refrains from saying, when Sherlock has his breakdown with Molly's coffin ("We experience science from the perspective of a lab rat."): "Yep, felt that way in Baskerville"...

Liberty wrote:

Yes, the governor was at fault, but it seems that Eurus is extremely manipulative and was influencing him.

Of course she was - the (impossible) premise of the show was that Euros influences - reprograms, enslaves - everyone she talks to - which is why Mycroft had given strict orders that nobody was to talk to her (and the Governor acted against those orders for no better reason than scientific curiosity - "she's clinically unique, we had to try").

And given that scenario I find the Euros we see surprisingly sane - or at least amazingly functional (I mean, she completely fools Sherlock as Faith Smith. Btw.,it's Euros who saved Culverton Smith's future victims - her visit made Sherlock pursue CS). Imagine being locked up in solitary confinement in a windowless room for 20 years or so (assuming that Uncle Rudy had started her out in a more "humane" facility) with apparantly nothing to occupy the mind or the body... Shudder... An adult murderer would probably face better conditions in prisons. Given that children are not legally responsible for their actions (there are people who work on rehabilitating child soldiers - they are not locked away for the atrocities they committed!) I am pretty shocked that Euros was simply disappeared!

By the way, in my opinion the "everybody" that Euros affects includes Mycroft and Sherlock, that's the most charitable explanation for Mycroft being slower than John and Sherlock not realizing the non-glass...

(I apologize if the quotes from the show are slightly off - I'm working from memory here as I don't have the time to check Ariadne's transcripts.)

PS: I'm deeply impressed by Sian Brooke and I really hope her career takes off in a big way now!

 

September 27, 2017 4:54 pm  #425


Re: Questions about TFP

I agree about Sian!  I wish there was more of her in Doctor Foster, which is currently airing!   Yes, she saved people ... and also possibly saved people through her work with Mycroft. 

 

September 27, 2017 8:55 pm  #426


Re: Questions about TFP

Love Eurus...want more, more more!


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September 28, 2017 1:22 pm  #427


Re: Questions about TFP

@Kittyhawk: as for Greg calling Sherlock a good man. You are right, he has not seen most of the dramatic events so it seems a bit contrived. On the other hand Sherlock has just told Greg to look after Mycroft in a very caring, compassionate way. And we should not forget that Greg knows about the wedding planning, he heard the speech, he knows Sherlock helped to catch serial killer CS who would have gone undetected by NSY. Maybe this is enough.
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 28, 2017 4:41 pm  #428


Re: Questions about TFP

And he's probably seen enough in recent weeks to see for himself that Sherlock has actually changed for the better.
 

 

September 28, 2017 5:00 pm  #429


Re: Questions about TFP

Yes, I think it's probably a gradual development over the whole four series that he's talking about, rather than something specific to TFP alone.

 

September 29, 2017 10:35 am  #430


Re: Questions about TFP

Liberty wrote:

Yes, I think it's probably a gradual development over the whole four series that he's talking about, rather than something specific to TFP alone.

Yeah, you are probably right - and, it just occurred to me now, he didn't see Sherlock at his worst either - literally out of his minds on drugs -, thanks to BAMF! Mrs. Hudson taking the matters into her own capable hands and car booth instead of calling the police.

The only sad thing about Greg's remark closing the circle is that it does not feel like a season 5 was in the works (and Moftiss have said as much in the DVD extras, sniff...)

 

September 29, 2017 5:14 pm  #431


Re: Questions about TFP

I think something changed....presumably Benedict and Martin's availability.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 29, 2017 6:08 pm  #432


Re: Questions about TFP

Kittyhawk wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Yes, I think it's probably a gradual development over the whole four series that he's talking about, rather than something specific to TFP alone.

Yeah, you are probably right - and, it just occurred to me now, he didn't see Sherlock at his worst either - literally out of his minds on drugs -, thanks to BAMF! Mrs. Hudson taking the matters into her own capable hands and car booth instead of calling the police.

Actually, it's car boot--the British word for "trunk."
 

 

December 21, 2017 6:55 pm  #433


Re: Questions about TFP

Not a question, really, but a nice discovery. Mary's epilogue is actually just a reprise of things that have been said long before - by Sherlock and John: 

SHERLOCK: You were a doctor who went to war. You’re a man who couldn’t stay in the suburbs for more than a month without storming a crack den and beating up a junkie. (that would be Mary's 'the doctor who never came home from the war’)

SHERLOCK: Your best friend is a sociopath who solves crimes as an alternative to getting high. That’s me, by the way. Hello. (and this is of course Mary's 'the junkie who solves crimes to get high’)

 And the place which is the ‘last refuge for the desperate and terrified’ is already mentioned at the beginning of TFP by John:

JOHN: Well, don’t worry. There’s a place for people like you – the desperate, the terrified, the ones with nowhere else to run.
MYCROFT: What place? 
JOHN: Two two one B Baker Street.

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

December 21, 2017 10:10 pm  #434


Re: Questions about TFP

NIce detail! I did notice the similarity between how Sherlock described John and himself and how Mary did it (but didn't notice the other bit). Nice call-back.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

December 21, 2017 11:06 pm  #435


Re: Questions about TFP

I like this .  No wonder the words sounded kind of familiar. 

 

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