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January 14, 2017 10:27 am  #1


Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I rewatched T6T - not because I like it so much, but to try and find some "higher" sens in all logical gaps and inconsistencies in this episode (mission failed). Instead I found some details, indicating, that John did not start being angry with Sherlock after Mary's death - he was angry from beginning of the season, or even earlier. Why? He never expressed it directly (in the contrary to seasons 1 and 2), instead his behavior was unpleasantly passive-aggressive, and his words sometimes very unfair towards Sherlock.

What I mean exactly (I hide it to make the post look shorter ;] )

- Greg and John talk about fatherhood, we soon start catching references to being Sherlock's flatmate - "All you do is clean up their mess, pat them on the head", "and it's all, 'Oh, aren't you clever. You're so, so clever.' ", "Never a word of thanks."  - only, I believe,  in TSoT and HLV John got already the biggest "Thank you" (and "I am sorry" too) possible... Not important anymore?
- David Welsborough asks: "Is your friend quite mad?" John answers: "No, he's an arsehole, but it's an easy mistake." Well, "He's a genius, doesn't think like ordinary people" would be nicer (i mean more loyal) toward Sherlock, and equally effective as response. 
- Red balloon - "It’s been there since nine this morning." 
All this remarks should appear to be jokes - only they are not funny.

- Sherlock "miraculously" comes back home. John: "So, basically, your plan is just to sit there solving crimes like you always do?" and looks very disapproving. Should it be harder for Sherlock, or what he means?
- Matter of name. Started in the tarmac scene, with hard "We’re not naming our daughter after you". As everybody knows, later Sherlock said many times: "it's not a girls name" (as opposite to "Sherlock is actually a girl’s name", I believe). Would it be so bad, to call the girl Sherlie, or Billie? (in my slavic ear it sounds much better, than Rosamund...). Did Sherlock not deserve it? But I doubt, John ever told Mary about Sherlock's suggestion, and Sherlock was apparently unable to set out his wish openly.

The only time, when John really applauded Sherlock, was after joking with Mary, who should stay with Rosie. Only Sherlock, pretending to be like everybody, was good? 

I believe, John's aggression kept accumulating, until it exploded in totally unfair accusation of killing Mary.
But why it started? What about was John angry?

 

January 14, 2017 10:32 am  #2


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

From what Martin has said, it did indeed accumulate. Throughout their friendship, as much as John loves Sherlock, he also pisses him off quite often.

John has just kept it in and ignored it all throughout. With Mary's death, John allowed himself to feel all that anger and vent it. In addition it was easier to blame Sherlock for everything instead of facing his own guilt, something he was not capable of doing at the time.

So as I see it - based on what Martin has said and what I am seeing - it was a combination of using Sherlock as a scape goat so he wouldn't have to face his own faults, and the accumulation of years of anger that he finally alllowed to show. 


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January 14, 2017 10:36 am  #3


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Perhaps John is still angry about the drugs in TAB?

When someone you love and care deeply for has an addiction you can sometimes feel like the times they 'slip up' and give into temptation that it's something they do to you.

I imagine John could feel that... the work they did with the cases was keeping Sherlock sober... so John might have felt he had a part in Sherlock being clean...

Using again was breaking an unspoken promise... and having a baby the last thing I imagine you'd want in your life is a junkie friend you feel you can't trust

Last edited by This Is The Phantom Lady (January 14, 2017 10:38 am)


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January 14, 2017 10:43 am  #4


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Oh, Vhanja, I was just about to post the same explanation.

I agree that the jokes at Sherlock's expense feel off in TST - not bc they are worse than ever, but bc they are not balanced out by John's admiration anymore.

Also, John must have told Mary about Sherlock's suggestion bc they reply in unison in TST when the issue of naming the child comes up.

It actually feels that Mary and John are more of a unit here than John and Sherlock. They are married so it's supposed to be like that, still feels off to the viewers that liked the S1 and S2 affection between Sherlock and John.


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January 14, 2017 10:46 am  #5


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Also, in TST Sherlock preferred Mary's company on the cases to John's, and even if they were joking, John's reactions to all the blog comments/feeling invisible sure made it seem that he had a sore spot and was feeling hurt.

And before that, we know about the drugs...

Also Sherlock didn't let John in on the plan in HLV at the Holmes' cottage, the whole thing fell apart and he shoots Magnusson point blank. Previous episodes made it clear John really doesn't like not being in the plan and not as a team, which is unsurprising given his military bg.

I think he had a lot of pent up anger, we never saw expressed.

 

January 14, 2017 11:36 am  #6


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I don't find the teasing too bad (about the baby name, etc.).  And Sherlock, much as I love him, is being an arsehole at the Welsborough's.  They have just suffered a terrible bereavement - losing a child is tragic and life-changing.   I think John is actually being sympathetic to them, in his way.   (We do come back to grief and bereavement later in that episode, and get more of a hint of how devastating losing a loved one is).

 

January 14, 2017 12:20 pm  #7


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Liberty wrote:

I don't find the teasing too bad (about the baby name, etc.).  And Sherlock, much as I love him, is being an arsehole at the Welsborough's.  They have just suffered a terrible bereavement - losing a child is tragic and life-changing.   I think John is actually being sympathetic to them, in his way..

I see another pattern: Sherlock's usual practice is start to work, when he feels sadness - we could see him doing it many times. At the Welsborough's, when he comes, he looks extremely distracted, and the same time he starts to watch carefully everything around - because he is already almost sure, what happened to Charlie Welsborough, there is no brainwork for him. He concentrates all thoughts on the missing bust, as long, as possible. When he needs (or - he is made) to explain secrets of Charlie's death, he does it shortly, and next expresses his condolences second time - this time speaks very serious. Just afterwards he leaves, and - again starts working on "broken bust case". I believe, Charlie's death woke up some very sad memories, and Sherlock needed to push them out of his mind...

Last edited by Naavy (January 14, 2017 12:28 pm)

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January 14, 2017 3:30 pm  #8


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Naavy wrote:

 I believe, Charlie's death woke up some very sad memories, and Sherlock needed to push them out of his mind...

I do not know. It seems to me more like " it is clear, boring, but here it is interesting" and he ignored completely the previous case and concenrated at the new one. (We can see that he is like alone in the room for a while). He is just ignorant to other people (especialy who he does not know) when his brain works.

As to  the anger it seems to me that he felt excluded a bit both by Sherlock and by Mary. He expected that he and Mary would be couple, and  that he and Sherlock are still team. That he would be informed first and maybe be some connecting point between them.

Instead he is again often the last one he is informed or asked. And his wife shows she is very independent and does not need him. He wants to be a man and protect her instead she is protecting him. It is not surprise that he sees his dead wife as kind,gentle, smiling, ie, such as he always wanted to have her.

I think that all this together with lack of sleep can lead to frustration and anger (and also cheating) . 

The name matter was more less joke from all sides I believe firts time was Sherlock covering his feelings by it and then in became a family joke.
 

 

January 14, 2017 7:03 pm  #9


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I mostly don't feel exactly like that.

- There was a reason, why Sherlock expressed his condolences twice (first time just words, put dismissively, but the second time very serious and honestly). 

- If John was jealous, why exactly, when Sherlock and Mary had their best fun, joking together, was he so glad?

- Of course, Sherlock always was an arsehole, and pissed people (including John) repeatedly. He also kept John in dark about his plans. But in beginning he was much worse, and John was never so terribly angry, so I do not think, it is the point. Additionally - why John stopped express his anger directly, what was much more healthier?

- If we talk drugs: when John said his cruel  "We’re not naming our daughter after you" in HLV, he had no idea, that Sherlock was high (I am not sure, if Mofftiss knew ;] ). In TAB John found out more, but Sherlock promised to not use again - and he did not until Mary's death.

Ewige, I like, what you wrote - how John was balancing his anger by admiration (perfectly put!). I don't feel this admiration in T6T anymore. Was John so angry because CAM's case, and Sherlock's first serious mistake? (Very conditional admiration?) Or everything started even before that?

Last edited by Naavy (January 14, 2017 7:04 pm)

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January 14, 2017 7:08 pm  #10


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I think John does have some anger issues, anyway.
Possibly with Harry.
Possibly as part of his PTSD, after Afghanistan.
Then with Sherlock and the fake death.
Then with Mary and the assassin business, including her going away and finally with her sacrificing herself.
Then with Sherlock for not being able to protect Mary.
Sherlock would try the patience of a saint.
But I do think John is angry with himself, too, at least partly through guilt.
I think he knew he overreacted with Sherlock in the morgue.
I hope he's now done.


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January 14, 2017 7:29 pm  #11


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

besleybean wrote:

I think John does have some anger issues, anyway.
Possibly with Harry.
Possibly as part of his PTSD, after Afghanistan.
Then with Sherlock and the fake death.
Then with Mary and the assassin business, including her going away and finally with her sacrificing herself.
Then with Sherlock for not being able to protect Mary.
Sherlock would try the patience of a saint.
But I do think John is angry with himself, too, at least partly through guilt.
I think he knew he overreacted with Sherlock in the morgue.
I hope he's now done.

I like, how you put it in words  

besleybean wrote:

I hope he's now done.

You mean end of anger? When he speaks about contacting Irene, he looks very angry with Sherlock's reluctance again...

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January 14, 2017 7:31 pm  #12


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Well again I just think he's frustrated with Sherlock and cannot(yet) understand why he denies himself happiness and happiness for John is action with women!
John has just lost the love of his life and yet here is Sherlock, throwing away possibly his one chance of happiness.


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January 14, 2017 7:31 pm  #13


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I don't think he's angry there so much as intense, earnest - he's feeling very strongly about what he's saying. 

 

January 14, 2017 7:34 pm  #14


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Yes and this time I think it's absolutely out of love for his best friend and caring about him.
This for me is totally acceptable.
But the previous beatings he's given Sherlock are just totally unacceptable.


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January 14, 2017 7:45 pm  #15


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Oh, absolutely.  I do think he has a bit of an aggressive manner in that scene (despite not being Glaswegian!), but he is speaking from a place of love and concern.  (And we know from TAB that Sherlock is bothered by his choice to be alone, and sees John as being concerned about it - so I think he completely takes this in the way it is intended).

 

January 14, 2017 9:10 pm  #16


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

Using again was breaking an unspoken promise... and having a baby the last thing I imagine you'd want in your life is a junkie friend you feel you can't trust

But Sherlock never used during TST?
Also, having a baby, I´m sure you wouldn´t want trained assassins around either - so why is John not equally angry with Mary?


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January 14, 2017 9:12 pm  #17


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I think he was slightly...see above.


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January 14, 2017 9:14 pm  #18


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

Liberty wrote:

(And we know from TAB that Sherlock is bothered by his choice to be alone, and sees John as being concerned about it - so I think he completely takes this in the way it is intended).

And yet John never asks "what do you want, Sherlock, to make you happy?", he just orders him to be with a woman who is a criminal and a sociopath right away, LOL.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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January 14, 2017 9:15 pm  #19


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

I think it's more about encouraging Sherlock to seize the day, before it's taken away.
Be he obviously feels Sherlock is interested in Irene.


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January 14, 2017 9:58 pm  #20


Re: Angry John - not only because Mary's death?

It's because that's the person Sherlock is obviously romantically interested in.  TAB John questions Sherlock about it, but real life John seems to come to the same conclusion without having to ask.  I'm pretty sure Sherlock won't take it as an order, but in the spirit that it's meant.

 

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