BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



January 11, 2017 12:47 pm  #1


Is Sherlock humanised through John?

We often hear from both fans and the creators of the show that Sherlock was or is supposed to be "humanised" through John. As you watch the show, do you agree with this claim?

Personally, I believe Sherlock was "humanised" through his own life-experience, when he came to understand his own self a bit better after all that happened to him. John maybe contributed to it but was not the actual factor in this.

(Examples: At the beginning of TRF, we saw how John helps Sherlock to act smoother around people, so this could count as "humanising" in a way. On the other hand, in HLV and TLD, his connection with John made Sherlock into a drug-ridden ruin, so in this way it was a regress, I think).

Can you give some other examples (preferably from S3 and S4) how John contributed to Sherlock´s humanisation?

Or are you of the opinion that Sherlock was human all along and didn´t need "improving" through John at all?


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 11, 2017 12:53 pm  #2


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

To me it's clear that Sherlock has been through a huge process of humanization. He has developed a lot as a character, and the Sherlock we see in TLD is almost a complete different person than the one we saw in S1. 

It is mostly through John, however the process itself is of course done by Sherlock himself. No one can change another person, they have to change themselves. But you can act as an inspiration, motivation or a catalysator for those things. And that is what John has been for Sherlock in this process.

Or I might have misunderstood the thread, if it's meant to be a "John is a horrible person and we don't want him to have any role at all in Sherlock's development because we don't like him anymore"-thread.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 11, 2017 1:17 pm  #3


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

Well, the drug relapse in HLV was for a case, wasn't it? ;)

I think John played his part because he gave Sherlock a reason, a motivation to care for others, to put other people first.

It showed in TSoT - "into battle", no matter how much losing a friend hurts (everybody said it was an end of the era!).
It showed in HLV - shooting CAM to protect the one your friend loves, no matter how much it hurrts inside (I always think of Snape here - "And my soul, Dumbledore, mine?")
It showed in TST - drawing fire to himself.
It showed in TLD - Sherlock who used to think being human meant being weak and subpar, not only admits to being one but also thinks it's the way to go for John.

Giving up his "caring is not an advantage" facade hurt Sherlock every step of the way but John was there for the whole journey - as the reason for every one of these steps towards humanity.


-----
"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.gif Context matters.
 

January 11, 2017 1:25 pm  #4


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

Vhanja wrote:

Or I might have misunderstood the thread, if it's meant to be a "John is a horrible person and we don't want him to have any role at all in Sherlock's development because we don't like him anymore"-thread.

Since "humanisation" of Sherlock (through John) is a big theme of the show apparently, I wanted to know what scenes of acts of John towards Sherlock we saw in the show were regarded as "humanising acts" by fellow fans.

Can´t define that any better, sorry.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
     Thread Starter
 

January 11, 2017 1:54 pm  #5


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

I always thought it wasn't something John set out to do. I think Sherlock loves John, romantically or otherwise doesn't matter. It's an emotion, one Sherlock has never felt before. Feeling love opens up a door that's very hard to shut and through that door comes humanization.


http://i63.tinypic.com/rmnsjc.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, I may be on the side of the angels, but don't think for one second that I am one of them.

And if I shed a tear I won't cage it, I won't fear love
And if I feel a rage I won't deny it, I won't fear love

 
 

January 11, 2017 3:45 pm  #6


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

I think John's presence acts as a catalyst of sorts in unlocking Sherlock's emotions.  He has never been the sociopath he claims to be.  Narcissist, maybe, but not a sociopath.  He chose to suppress his opinions because caring or emotions were too painful to deal with or maybe in part because they interfered with his deductive abilities.
   I think this was also largely due to Mycroft coaching him to do so.  My guess is that Mycroft drilling into Sherlock that "caring is not an advantage" has something to do with childhood trauma--probably Euros--and am hoping it will be explained in TFP.
      So, does that count as John humanizing Sherlock? I guess I always went along with it as that is what we lead to believe was happening, but don't know.  John certainly helps him to present himself more appropriately to others with social cues.  But I think Sherlock has been very caring and self-sacrificing all along.  He just needed John to bring out those qualities.
   I think that both of them satisfy a need in each other and they love and fulfill and complete one another.  I don't mean romantically, but just as a deep, deep friendship in which they would do anything for each other and accept each other as is, flaws and imperfections both.  This is one of the reasons I love this show.  I find their relationship very special and unique, and both actors portray it so well.


"Is that why you're calling yourself Greg?" 
"That's his name!"
"Is it?"
 

January 11, 2017 5:38 pm  #7


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

I agree, NoShipSherlock.
 

 

January 11, 2017 8:30 pm  #8


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

I agree too.  I know this isn't the official story, but I actually think Sherlock is quite human right from the beginning.   And I think that comment at the end of TLD about everyone being human, even you (i.e. John) is quite telling.  

I think John helps him sometimes with social niceties, and also I think the fact that he cares so much for John helps him be more human.   But I don't think it's so much that John acts to make Sherlock human.  In fact in HLV, he's still assuring him that he's a psychopath or sociopath (I can't remember which), even though I don't think he really believes it.

 

January 11, 2017 8:33 pm  #9


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

I think they humanise each other.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 11, 2017 8:38 pm  #10


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

besleybean wrote:

I think they humanise each other.

 
Yeah, I like the symmetry of that.
And people don't have to actively do something to bring out the best in each other. It's like with what John said about Mary - he wanted to become a better man because this is how she saw him. That was enough. No planned action needed.


-----
"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.gif Context matters.
 

January 11, 2017 8:55 pm  #11


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

ewige wrote:

besleybean wrote:

I think they humanise each other.

 
Yeah, I like the symmetry of that.
And people don't have to actively do something to bring out the best in each other. It's like with what John said about Mary - he wanted to become a better man because this is how she saw him. That was enough. No planned action needed.

I think Sherlock sees it in him too, just like John sees a better, more human  person in Sherlock. That way, they humanise each other.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 11, 2017 9:06 pm  #12


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

besleybean wrote:

I think they humanise each other.

Can I just take an aside here and say that I just watched the video link you have there. I have to say that I think Mark Gatiss is adoooorable. http://www.fadzter.com/smilies/love.gif

Last edited by ismiseceltic (January 11, 2017 9:18 pm)


http://i63.tinypic.com/rmnsjc.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, I may be on the side of the angels, but don't think for one second that I am one of them.

And if I shed a tear I won't cage it, I won't fear love
And if I feel a rage I won't deny it, I won't fear love

 
 

January 11, 2017 9:30 pm  #13


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

Isn't he just?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 11, 2017 11:12 pm  #14


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

I  think this is very much an aspect of both the original Strand stories and the show, but especially the show.

John is Sherlock's first real, honest friend (I don't count Trevor). Sherlock knew people before, but he never had a friend. This is because friendship is a mutual love. It requires two-sided dedication and appreciation. Before John, Sherlock made it his modus operandi to avoid/abjure all these things, hence no actual friends.


John was an honest good person who was too stubborn to let Sherlock carry on pretending to be a machine/dickwad. He forced Sherlock to confront his personal demons (drug abuse, cynicism, disregard for other humans, thrill-addiction, self-absoption) vis-a-vis. You can see this particularly in The Abominable Bride.
John constantly functions as Sherlock's conscience, questioning Sherlock's drug habits ("You will hold yourself to a higher standard.") and denial of emotion ("Why do you need to be alone?"). If in Sherlock's mind Moriarty represents Sherlock's weakness and fear, then John represents his humanity and morality. In the end of TAB, John kicks Moriarty over the water fall, showing that Sherly is ready to give up his former weakness and let himself be good.
S3E1 Sherlock even hears John's voice in his head when he goes on that case with Molly ("Show-off").

So, yeah I agree.

 

January 12, 2017 12:02 am  #15


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

They slightly remind me of Don Quixote and Sancho, Sherlock being the idealistic and brainy one (Don Quixote) and John being the practical and grounded (Sancho), taking some obvious differences. All along the novel, Don Quixote and Sancho keep interacting and, at the end, Don Quixote has taken some traits from Sancho's personality and vice versa. We call this Quixotization of Sancho and Sanchification of Don Quixote.

I think this is what's happening to John and Sherlock as well. Sherlock has always been human, but he suppressed his emotions eventually ("Oh, Watson, nothing made me: I made me", TAB), though I think that decission might be related to his past, Redbeard, family... Then, with John's help, presence, praise, loyalty and caring, I think that any wall Sherlock might had built around him started to crack. He cares about people again, he can't control his emotions like he used to, he reads into people's emotions better

In the same way, I think John's life -though it could seem quite contradictory- has improved in Sherlock's company, with running after danger and stuff. John was a little suicidal after he returned from war and before meeting Sherlock. He didn't have any aims in his life, it was pointless. Then Sherlock provided adrenaline and goals. Plus, John's deductions are far better now. And, at last, he's learning to open himself a little, to share his feelings.

So yes, I think Sherlock is being influenced by John and John by Sherlock. Sherlockization of John and Johnification of Sherlock. Hahaha.

(Sorry for my English, really. I wanted to communicate some deep theories and to do justice to such great characters as Don Quixote, Sancho, Sherlock and John, but I might have messed it up with my lack of fluency, sorry).

Last edited by NicoleCollard (January 12, 2017 12:04 am)


Sherlock Holmes: I've disappointed you.
John Watson: That's good... that's a good deduction, yeah.
Sherlock Holmes: Don't make people into heroes, John. Heroes don't exist, and if they did, I wouldn't be one of them.
 

January 12, 2017 2:01 am  #16


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

No, it's perfect and lovely Nicole.  Thank you.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p635/lianafuller/qwer_zpsbebc7b3b.png
 

January 12, 2017 9:33 am  #17


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

All your resposes were beautiful, thank you.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
     Thread Starter
 

January 12, 2017 12:11 pm  #18


Re: Is Sherlock humanised through John?

Yes very interesting comments and question. 

I loved Sherlock from the first episode , I liked that he was different and so blunt. Like John I thought him a bit mad but utterly charming.
I think what John has done for Sherlock is more make Sherlock feel a part of humanity rather than a freaky outsider looking down on everyone and everything .Not only that but John also has made Sherlock want to be part of it all .Caring brings empathy and that might have been the only thing Sherlock lacked.Sherlock and John genuinely like and eventually love each other and maybe Sherlock realises despite the majority of humans being despicable idiots wasting his time - theres still hope , loyalty , love and all those good things out there to be found.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum