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January 9, 2017 10:33 am  #41


Re: John's violence

Just saying... anyone can become small at the hands of an abuser. Being male, strong, bigger does not mean you can't be a victim.


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January 9, 2017 10:35 am  #42


Re: John's violence

Vey good post, Whisky, I really like your thoughts. And I think John finally showing some vulnerability, being open, raw and grieving, in front of Sherlock, is also a sign of trust. Of finally letting his guard down. 

Also, I just want to add that Sherlock has a horrible lack of self-preservation (and some self-esteem issues).

Last edited by Vhanja (January 9, 2017 10:37 am)


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January 9, 2017 10:37 am  #43


Re: John's violence

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

Just saying... anyone can become small at the hands of an abuser. Being male, strong, bigger does not mean you can't be a victim.

Agree with you wholeheartedly.


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January 9, 2017 10:53 am  #44


Re: John's violence

I agree with Whisky. 

I think that main difference  here is in how we see Sherlock in this scene.  Those who see him week , ill, victim, consider it too violent. 

But John never saw Sherlock as  the  weaker of they two. And does not believe too much that his state is not just  another game despite of what did Molly say. Does not believe that Sherlock is not able to defend from him. I do not think he  wants to hurt him intentionally, too, he just does not care which is exactly what is Sherlock doing to him. 

I do not think it is right to kick to a person, but I understand it. Sometimes is more efficient, pleasant and clears relationship better to use fists then ignore each other or use long speaches/letters full of words that should  have never been told.

Anybody can be a victim but must allow the abuser to make him into victim and I do not think this is the case, also John is not abuser. They just need each other to find the better in them and get the worse under control. 

 

January 9, 2017 10:57 am  #45


Re: John's violence


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January 9, 2017 11:00 am  #46


Re: John's violence

As for Sherlock being a stronger, bigger man - the fact is that John did manage to overpower him in ASiB, when Sherlock was both sober, healthy and alert. So I am not sure if Sherlock really is the strongest one of the two.

nakahara - yeah, that was the one I read yesterday. I think that's an example of reading too much into it. 


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January 9, 2017 11:33 am  #47


Re: John's violence

Not sure if this is the right thread for it, but here's an inteview with Martin Freeman (podcast) regarding the "complicated relationship" between Sherlock and John:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/podcast-book-club/podcasts/sherlock-martin-freeman-on-john-and-sherlocks-complicated-relationship/


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January 9, 2017 11:36 am  #48


Re: John's violence

I mean that it is the way John sees it. Anyway, it is always as Sherlock wants, not John (or at least usually) . Sherlock makes John do whatever and never asks if he agrees. John accepts it and we , too, bacause it is Sherlock. But it does not mean it is right.

Going back to abusers. Is not it more like that abused woman has finally enough and smashes abusers head with frypan giving all the frustration and emotions that she was hiding for years to it? Not right but understandable.

 This is not so cruel and also the relationship is not so extreme but as well as John need to lower his physical violence, Sherlock should deal with his need for mental manipulation.

 

January 9, 2017 11:38 am  #49


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

I mean that it is the way John sees it. Anyway, it is always as Sherlock wants, not John (or at least usually) . Sherlock makes John do whatever and never asks if he agrees. John accepts it and we , too, bacause it is Sherlock. But it does not mean it is right.

Going back to abusers. Is not it more like that abused woman has finally enough and smashes abusers head with frypan giving all the frustration and emotions that she was hiding for years to it? Not right but understandable.

 This is not so cruel and also the relationship is not so extreme but as well as John need to lower his physical violence, Sherlock should deal with his need for mental manipulation.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this.


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January 9, 2017 11:50 am  #50


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

Going back to abusers. Is not it more like that abused woman has finally enough and smashes abusers head with frypan giving all the frustration and emotions that she was hiding for years to it? Not right but understandable.

Organising John´s and Mary´s wedding in TSOT.
Removing Magnussen out of their path in HLV, being shot and forgiving it with no repercussions for Mary.
Being there for them during whole TST, allowing them to be at Baker Street whole of the time, protecting John while AJ was shooting at them....

Which one of these Sherlock´s acts directly preceding TLD would you call abuse from Sherlock´s side? Which one of them lead to him deserving such vicious hatred from John?

Yes, long time ago, Sherlock poisoned John in THOB. Then he lied to him in TRF, but only in an effort to save John´s life.

But since then he already cleaned up his act and proved many times how important John is to him, being self-sacrificing and self-effacing....

And suddenly he is the abuser?
 


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January 9, 2017 11:54 am  #51


Re: John's violence

I think it was written to shock. They know that none of us are going to feel comfortable watching John beat the shit out of Sherlock, two men who are supposed to be best friends and care for each other deeply. They know that it makes for uncomfortable, distressing viewing.

But whether we agree with it or not, I'm afraid we are expected to get over it and move on. I doubt it will ever be mentioned or referenced again. The series moves too quickly and has bigger things to deal with than that.

Having said that, I found the violence pretty shocking and painful, and not really very understandable. I still don't understand why John is SO angry at Sherlock. I don't get why it's taken him so long to admit that Sherlock was not to blame for Mary's death, and like someone said earlier in this thread, he's basically behaved like an asshole this entire series. I don't really like him as a character at the moment, and have little sympathy for him.


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January 9, 2017 11:58 am  #52


Re: John's violence

I agree with all that (including that we're meant to get over it!).  I'm hoping/guessing that TFP will be the episode where John "redeems" himself.

 

January 9, 2017 12:03 pm  #53


Re: John's violence

Well, in a way Martin describes it the way Preceja did - he takes all the pent up anger over all the years and allow himself to release it, due to Mary's death. (Also mixed with redirecting his own guilt and pain onto Sherlock, because - in Martin's own words - if he didn't, he would die. As in - the pain is too much, he can't handle it).

Last edited by Vhanja (January 9, 2017 12:06 pm)


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January 9, 2017 12:40 pm  #54


Re: John's violence

It is not that it happened at the beginning and suddenly Sherlock has changed. He can be very generous and then ignorant next minute all the time. 

He killed CAM for Mary but also druged the whole family uncluding pregnant Mary and took John to CAM without any notice

During TST there were both moments . He helped and he was rude and ignorant to John's feelings. I think this(if longterm)  may destroy any relationship easier then few punches.
So John is no villain and Sherlock is not a victim at least not John's victim as John would never do that and Sherlock would never allow it.
Maybe he is a victim of Euros but we will see next week.
 

 

 

January 9, 2017 12:44 pm  #55


Re: John's violence

I agree with nakahara... This scene was brutal to watch and I'm not really forgiving it. We have seen time and time again Sherlock's character growing more compassionate and generous, yes he isn't perfect yes he cruelly pranked John on the underground train in TEH... (by the way, John's reaction in the underground is remarkably mirroring his reaction to the audio plant in his cane, in TLD "you utter cock"). And using again can be seen as betrayal.

But wow. The violent beat down in TLD made me actually pause and walk away. It wasn't shocking, it was totally gross. I have no idea what is going on anymore but nothing about that was justified, John's had some pent up stuff before including the betrayal of his wife and her killing her best friend, so. He didn't explode then, but actually in 221B when Sherlock is on the verge of collapse, John actually threatens Sherlock ("one more word and you won't need morphine"). His character has been getting progressively dark, with their relationship getting seriously co-dependent and its starting to not be fun anymore    Perhaps that is the point, given that John even says to Lestrade something akin to 'we did see it coming, he shot Magnussen in the face, but before, it was FUN'. 

I've said it in other threads but something still feels off. Things aren't matching up yet, nothing feels resolved and the TLD violence coupled with the previous episodes' clear direction that Sherlock is definately able to defend against violence is a striking contrast to the vulnerability here. Even if it was in the plan, and John really thought Sherlock was going to murder (again) the hatred was pretty ramped up. I read the transcript to the earlier posted interview, and even the description of John's gult and self-loathing doesn't explain how he would be hateful. 

I think this is now three times too, that as a doctor John didn't notice something? First with the pregnancy, second with Sherlock's about to collapse in 221B after being shot, and again not grasping what is happening in TLD. Like Culverton says, 'are you seriously a medical doctor?'. Given it keeps being brought up, I'm wondering again if there is something else at play or if this is just something Motfiss really want us to see and judge. 

Last edited by WhoIWantToBe (January 9, 2017 12:45 pm)

 

January 9, 2017 1:11 pm  #56


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

It is not that it happened at the beginning and suddenly Sherlock has changed. He can be very generous and then ignorant next minute all the time. 

In my opinion he has changed enormously. Sherlock of S1 and S2 would never be caught organising anyone´s marriage or giving deeply sympathetic, heartfelt speeches we had heard during TLD...

Preceja wrote:

He killed CAM for Mary but also druged the whole family uncluding pregnant Mary and took John to CAM without any notice

In the same episode Mary shot Sherlock, yet was forgiven in the very next scene, without repercussions. Drugging is much less serious a delict, so why hold a grudge against Sherlock if Mary was completely redeemed?

Preceja wrote:

 During TST there were both moments . He helped and he was rude and ignorant to John's feelings. I think this(if longterm)  may destroy any relationship easier then few punches.

And John was inconsiderate of his feelings in turn (in HLV "who would Sherlock bother protecting", in TSOT "you are a drama queen!", in TST "don´t you dare! you are the last I would accept help from"). Yet nobody was punching John for it - which is quite right, since ignorance of someone´s feelings really is no reason for violence.

Not if the "few punches" start evolving into a pattern.....

Also, as some fans pointed out, Molly was largely seen as abusive after she slapped Sherlock in HLV. And John should be left off the hook for punching and kicking him until he bled?

Preceja wrote:

So John is no villain and Sherlock is not a victim at least not John's victim as John would never do that and Sherlock would never allow it.
 

But John actually did it? And not for the first time?


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January 9, 2017 1:22 pm  #57


Re: John's violence

Bear in mind that Sherlock drugged people because he wanted to save Mary.  Which he did.  There was no intention to hurt them, no maliciousness, and he consulted an expert before doing it to make sure it was safe.   It might be wrong, but it's not deliberately abusive. 

I'm not trying to turn this into Sherlock v John, but I really don't want it turn into John's violence is OK, because Sherlock did x.  It's not OK. 

(I agree about Sherlock through S3 and S4 so far, Nakahara.  He continually makes sacrifices to help other people, and hardly asks for anything for himself.  He may be flawed, but he's very much on the good side).  

 

January 9, 2017 1:23 pm  #58


Re: John's violence

I agree, John was hurting so much he was in danger to die (at his own hands, maybe even). Sherlock was aware. And I don't know how to phrase this, but maybe he was even glad John was finally letting go, letting himself feel all the pain, because Sherlock knew that was the way out for him. Yes, it was gross, and brutal, and dangerous (he could really have hurt Sherlock in a permanent way). But I think John wasn't thinking, he was just feeling, and loosing touch to everything else.

And if we go really far, and think of the affection between the two, maybe Sherlock was okay with feeling the pain John felt. Just in a different way. Like sharing it to ease it. I could never forgive such an assault. Except I'd see true regret. John's breakdown shows me that he now has let out the anger, but is now eaten by guilt.

It is the stages of grief again. The denial, the anger, the breakdown, the grief, the acceptance... it is all there. Very classic. How violent the anger is, how deep the grief... it's something I would never want to judge. Like we established in another thread, grief isn't rational. John isn't rational when he beats Sherlock up, I am sure of that at least.

We always look at Sherlock's development. But look at John's. He is changing, too. And not smoothly. He is also loosing his footing, again and again, but in different ways.

From own experience, I would always say that keeping your anger to yourself does at least as much harm as letting it out (maybe doing others harm). John doesn't beat Molly up, or Mrs. Hudson, or Mycroft, or the secretary. He turns to Sherlock, because sometimes we (need to) hurt the ones the most we love the most.
I don't know how to phrase this better, it sounds wrong, but I don't mean abuse. I mean desperation.

Also calling something okay and understand something are two different things. I would never call violence okay. But I understand it can happen. We are all human, aren't we. We tend to look at the results, not to the cause. We do that all the time, don't we - just watch the news. It's like we judge people only by their actions, and never look deeper. It is not the same as excusing violence. It is seeing it for what it is. And that is exactly the wording what John and Sherlock use in the end.
 

Last edited by Whisky (January 9, 2017 1:27 pm)


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January 9, 2017 1:25 pm  #59


Re: John's violence

Liberty wrote:

I'm not trying to turn this into Sherlock v John, but I really don't want it turn into John's violence is OK, because Sherlock did x.  It's not OK. 
 

I agree with this, and that is not my intent either.

My intent is more that John did X, and Sherlock did Y, and neither of those things are acceptable. 

I can understand those who think that arguing for John in any way can be seen as trying to excuse abusive/violent behaviour. And I am just as set against mental/emotional manipulation being excused.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 9, 2017 1:27 pm)


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January 9, 2017 1:30 pm  #60


Re: John's violence

Vhanja, I just feel that they are not really comparable.

(Sherlock does some things that are wrong or unacceptable, but I don't see him doing anything malicious to John.  I don't see any mental manipulation with the intent to abuse).

Last edited by Liberty (January 9, 2017 1:31 pm)

 

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