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January 3, 2017 1:47 pm  #1


TST - what is real in this episode?

Since the idea of at least part of TST being not real/EMP/a dream/whatever cannot be discounted, please feel free to discuss your thoughts here. We have collected many questions here:

http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=276708#p276708

that might be of use for the discussion. Because many of those questions can only be explained as either big continuity errors (too big and too many) or as being deliberately unreliable. 

Solar told me that according to the team the different layout of the Watson flat was due to the use of set instead of a real house. This does not explain, however, why they put a door in the set where they did not have a door before. They could have rebuilt a roomier set and keep the original layout which they did not.
Same goes for the switched bedsides. I cannot remember having a baby being a reason for suddenly sleeping on the other side of the bed, especially not if the baby's cot is not next to the bed. 

Then there are the changed hairstyles. Do not get me started on them. 

John's blog entry about a yet unborn baby. 

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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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January 3, 2017 1:54 pm  #2


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I keep wanting to say that we often swap sides in the bed. So it didn't surprise me at all. I am more surprised that it is such a big deal or clue for others.

The sharks/aquarium framing make it seem that there is a story being told within a story but it's not that unusual either.


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January 3, 2017 1:58 pm  #3


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

We never changes sides. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
 I wondered about this because we had two scenes of them sleeping before and both times it was the other way around. But this is only one aspect. I think there are more things that do not add up and I tend to take yesterday's tweet about "Nothing is certain. Nothing is written" as a confirmation. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

January 3, 2017 2:13 pm  #4


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Which door are you referring to, Susi?

The stairs in the living room weren't there before, either. In the behind the scenes-snippet Arwel said that they added the stairs to make the house feel more complete.
As for the bed: I'm not a mother so I don't know if this a logical thought, but Mary's side of the bed in TST is a bit closer to the door that leads to the Rosie's room. Even if it's only a difference of two or three steps, maybe they changed sides for practical reasons? (That's assuming of course that Mary would get up more often for the baby than John... which I'm not convinced of, I'll freely admit it.) 


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January 3, 2017 2:24 pm  #5


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

The stairs were there, in MHR and HLV. What was not there is the front door next to the windows (looking from the POV of the sofa). When John opens the door to the distressed neighbour in HLV, he walks to the right. The windows minus the door are to the right of the sofa. In TST we see the front door next to the windows. 

The layout in MHR and HLV is exactly the same whereas in TST the sides have been switched. 


 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

January 3, 2017 2:39 pm  #6


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Arwel talked about the door, I'm just not entirely if we are talking about the same door, Susi. I think the door next to the windows is the one where Sherlock is talking to Molly. Arwel explained why they did this: This kind of door apparently was easier to build as a set, in the bts he showed the door through which you can actually walk into the flat. So assuming that he's not telling us some big lie, they changed the door because it was easier to build and easier to film.  


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"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 3, 2017 2:51 pm  #7


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I think, I' am going to like this topic very much
As I already wrote last night

Naavy wrote:

...Am I the only one, who thinks, that Sherlock never managed to fight A.J. in the pool, and the second half (even a bit more, to be precise) of the episode happens in his mind, when he is drowning? 
IMO - that's why in the beginning and in the end of the episode we see water, and that's why in the beginning "Appointment In Samarra" story is told - initially Sherlock believes, that he just avoided certain death, and he is wrong: death awaits him in UK. That's also why some moment episode becomes someway surrealistic - it is not reality, but the delusion, like in "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" by Ambrose Bierce.
My only doubt is because similarity between this story, and TAB - delusional Sherlock, again?
But except this, everything seems to fit perfectly together...

I guess, there are many mirrors in this episode as the symbol, because what we see in the second half, is just reflection of reality in Sherlock's mind. Switched details - the same. Switched bedsides - Sherlock probably was never in Watsons bedroom, and surely he never was able to see both of them in the bed. He needs to imagine such details, and has only 50% chance to do it right.
IMHO sharks symbolize the danger (this water can kill!), and also are the reminder of CAM. And what happens after the pool scene, is projection of Sherlock's consciousness, and subconsciousness - we can deduce some very interesting facts, like what he feels about John and Mary. 
Of course, I believe, that Sherlock is to be saved very soon!
 

Last edited by Naavy (January 8, 2017 12:33 pm)

 

January 3, 2017 2:51 pm  #8


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

To be honest, I hope most of the episode - and the future ones - take place in the real world. MP was cool the way they used it in TAB, but they shouldn't do that too often.


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January 3, 2017 2:57 pm  #9


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

January 3, 2017 2:58 pm  #10


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I hope that everything was real !!
IMO, I preferred the mind palace as shown in HOB, a sort of Minority Report-like thing, than the one in TAB, even if I love both !!


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January 3, 2017 3:09 pm  #11


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Vhanja wrote:

To be honest, I hope most of the episode - and the future ones - take place in the real world. MP was cool the way they used it in TAB, but they shouldn't do that too often.

I agree completely. I simply cannot find another way to make all pieces of the puzzle fit so good...
On the other side: I hoped Mary to last in "Sherlock" some episodes longer - maybe as the recurring character? With her past, she could be made to disappear, and return next season. She kept bringing great energy to the series. So, that's the reason, why I would like her to not die so soon.

Last edited by Naavy (January 3, 2017 3:17 pm)

 

January 3, 2017 3:43 pm  #12


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I think there are very good reasons to doubt what we have been shown ever since TEH. We are certainly getting a warped version of reality with repeating themes. Unsure as to why.
I think before TRF we saw mainly from John Watsons point of view and his blog backed it up so things seemed clearer and more straight forward.

Now ( since TRF ) we have been seeing from Sherlocks point of view and something is happening. Maybe it is a mix of drugs , mind palace , and Sherlocks ability to run scenes and probabilities in his head. With Sherlock I think anything is possible , it wouldn't surprise me if Sherlock was still on St. Barts roof.     

I am excited to discover what happens though ! 

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 3, 2017 3:46 pm)


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January 3, 2017 3:56 pm  #13


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I like MP most in the way it was shown in HLV after the shot. That was brilliant. But whole episodes in MP are far too much for my taste.


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January 3, 2017 3:59 pm  #14


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

SusiGo wrote:

Then there are the changed hairstyles. Do not get me started on them. 

 

Well, as for the hair I suppose they just look better this way and since neither Mary's nor John's hair can match the importance of the CURLS, they decided to go for it. It is not like Mary became the empress Sissi somehow.

 

January 3, 2017 4:00 pm  #15


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I hope by far most of what we see is real. TAB was fun and kind of made sense in the way it connected Victorian times to the present. But if everything is a dream/MP etc. it would undo the character development we see and mean that actually nothing is at stake. There already is a problem in the story that even death feels only semi-permanent, thanks to all fake deaths/implied fake deaths. I personally prefer the dead to stay dead and MP to be used sparingly. The stakes are higher this way.

Last edited by Lola Red (January 3, 2017 4:02 pm)


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January 3, 2017 5:38 pm  #16


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

I totally agree with you, Lola.


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January 3, 2017 5:56 pm  #17


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

As far as TST is concerned I do think most of what we are seeing is "real."  But that we are seeing it from the point of an unreliable narrator.  I lean toward the idea that most of what we see in the episode is Sherlock relating the events to Ella in therapy.  This makes the most sense to me.   


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January 3, 2017 5:59 pm  #18


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

And as I've said before, I really like that idea.


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January 3, 2017 6:03 pm  #19


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Well, a big part of me would like it, if we still are in MP or something like that, if, in the end, they manage to pull that off cleverly. And at this point I have doubts. Too much has happened storywise since HLV (and before).
And it wouldn't bring the story forward, would it?

This whole episode had a weird feeling to me, I wasn't very pleased with it. It was weird in a different way from TAB or some scenes in HLV for example. I don't see the episode being mindpalace, still it had a dreamlike, irritating quality. Maybe because it raised more questions than they have answered.
 

Last edited by Rache (January 3, 2017 6:07 pm)


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January 3, 2017 6:05 pm  #20


Re: TST - what is real in this episode?

Again I'm calling it:  it's all real!


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