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June 10, 2016 8:43 am  #41


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Oh, one more thing: the List.
Why there was no List in HLV? Or why it suddenly appears in TAB?
Mycroft should have asked for the list as soon as Sherlock appeared at 221B after John had brought him back from the drug den. This would be a big incosistency to bring such a important thing into the plot out of nowhere.
 

 

June 10, 2016 8:52 am  #42


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Yes, this is true. The plane scenes never sat right with me - mostly because of Mary and MI6 - but this is another valid argument. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 10, 2016 10:51 am  #43


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

GimmeCat wrote:

And maybe he never gets on the plane in the first place? Maybe he didn't show up? Maybe the tarmac scene never happened at all? What if all of S4E1 is in some kind of drug-induced coma?

I got over-excited, and then I realised I cannot even think that, because it starts feeling as if nothing ever was real... it's a bit as if that solid BBC Sherlock show maybe never actually aired, and it was all just a dream... or a mind palace thing... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
Anyone feeling the same? Like theories just get too much for your brains and you start feeling the effects in a bad way?http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/shocked.png
Maybe there was no series 1-3 and maybe there will never be a series 4. Maybe I'm just hallucinating... But. Still. Excited. ... Damn. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png


We've seen E2 setlock, where Sherlock seems to suddenly find himself standing in the middle of a busy street, no idea how he got there, standing in traffic with a cabbie yelling "Do you even know where you are?"

Ah, I was hoping that's the time travel part http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


ewige wrote:

Having your character wake up all of a sudden in the end is the sort of a reset button that self-respecting writers push only once.

As much as I love speculation, I think this is why I wouldn't like even more extensive drug/mind palace parts. I also agree with SolarSystem - for me at least, trust is already gone... I will always suspect mind palace/drugs at work, because of TAB. I think it would be cleverer to use mind palace in a "reliable" way - suprising, yes, but not confusing on that scale. It's like my reaction to this thread - I'm a bit weary of it. (weary... is that the word? I mean, like, careful and exhausted, but not: fed up)

JP wrote:

TAB is more like a shaman drug induced trance

this is a great way to describe it http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


Oh, and about Arwel and the "plane mistakes"... I don't read anything into it. I think it's Arwel making jokes, trying to fuel theories and conspiracies, and Douglas jumping on the same train, helping Arwel out. I also find the "mistakes" within the plane too minor to be deliberate. My opinion http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
But the approach is great... maybe we could get more out of Arwel http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
But I also think it could just mean "not real" in the sense that Sherlock is in Victorian time. So of course, the plane is "not real" in this moment. It doesn't have to mean the big context, it could just mean "not real if we see it from viewpoint of Victorian Sherlock because he's drugged and hallucinating planes".

Now I'm off to read this EMP theory... so far, all I think about when hearing EMP is heavy metal music merchandise http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
(a german merchandising store is called that way)
 

Last edited by Whisky (June 10, 2016 11:13 am)


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June 10, 2016 1:39 pm  #44


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

I feel the opposite, Whiskey. I think those mistakes are ones our genius Arwel would never in a million years commit. He is absolutely meticulous with detail. I would be incredibly surprised if not a single person on the crew noticed, for instance, the side panelling being a completely different material/colour.


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June 10, 2016 2:08 pm  #45


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Maybe I put that wrong... I mean, they seem minor in that they don't seem very deliberate. I find it plausible to use a real interior plus one on set, and that would explain the differences. I mean, I'm sure Arwel would see something like this, but they also has to make decisions like "does it matter, doesn't it matter"... in terms of effort, time, money... I think if it was deliberate, planted, it would be obvious in a different way. But I think it's normal we read that different. You could also be right.
 


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

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June 10, 2016 2:14 pm  #46


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Whisky, in any other movie I would surely see it as limitations of the filmmaking. But they KNOW we are looking at every detail. And there are so many details that matter, at least as links to canon...

I try not to put too much importance into it, maybe there are reasons for what they do, maybe they just play with us. I think I like the theory of the whole TAB not being real, because I don't like the junkie-Sherlock-who-was-high-in-the-last-HLV-scene version of the story.

And then - It would be just very nice to be right about it. Something to show off, you know... http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

 

June 10, 2016 3:39 pm  #47


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

We should not forget Mycroft's tie. This is another sloppiness like they usually do not happen to the team. And it is quite improbably that suddenly several of those things should happen when they have not done before. 

I admit, there are continuity errors - like the bleeding cabbie or the rotating cushion in ASiB - but this here is different. 

As for the plane scenes - I have never understood the logic of mixing reality and dream amongst the plane scenes, i.e. making one or two real and the middle one not. I think this would be overdoing it a bit. Therefore I came to the conclusion that either all or none of the modern scenes are real. And I am quite sure that none of them are real. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 10, 2016 4:29 pm  #48


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Sorry I'm so OCD...but why fake CAM's death?
I know it's a bit of a thing with Sherlock and I know we've only really had 2 fake deaths to date...
But I'm not really sure to what purpose.


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June 10, 2016 5:16 pm  #49


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Well, it would certainly be wonderful to have CAM back.  But I'd be worried about the show not seeming grounded enough - if so much is mind palace then it just becomes nonsense in the end.  I thought TAB was really interesting in showing the workings of Sherlock's mind and his view of other people, but it didn't allow the other characters to progress.   And if a lot of HLV becomes mind palace as well, then we'd have to rethink them too .... we'd have to get caring Mycroft out of our minds, for instance, because he might only exist in Sherlock's fantasy.    I think that kind of thing is actually pretty difficult for an audience to keep track of over years. 

 

June 10, 2016 5:19 pm  #50


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

To be honest it's the villain thing that's bothering me, as ever.
All these villains who(to paraphrase Mark and Steven) aren't as good as Moriarty,
I loved CAM, but now we're supposed to be getting Toby...
I'm confused.
And then, why was Sherlock on that plane at all?!


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June 10, 2016 7:53 pm  #51


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Well, if the extended mind palace theory is accurate, then he wasn't on the plane at all. Not in HLV, not in TAB. Because then everything that happened after his collapse in 221B would have taken place in his MP (and I'm not really a huge fan of that idea).

Last edited by SolarSystem (June 10, 2016 7:54 pm)


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June 10, 2016 7:56 pm  #52


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Me neither.


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June 11, 2016 5:53 pm  #53


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

It's possible Toby isn't the arch-villain of S4. I think it's OK to say this as there is "spoiler" in the thread title, but I got the impression that he is cast for Ep2 and we know who he's going to play.   The villain of Ep2 of S3 was a rather minor character.   I know Toby will be much a bigger character, but we don't know for certain if he's the archvillain for the final episode yet, do we? 

I agree, I would hate for a lot of HLV to be mind palace.  And then it would never even be clear whether it was just after the collapse at 221B anyway - why not after he was shot?  Why not after being drugged at the beginning?  Maybe the whole thing, or the whole series is just a fantasy of a drug addict with delusions of grandeur?

 

June 11, 2016 5:57 pm  #54


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

It just becomes messy and too non-canonical.
I mean I remain confident in the team, I am sure they will give us something good.
My issues are personal and not really a criticism, just more accepting how it is.


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June 11, 2016 6:06 pm  #55


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Hating an idea is one thing, collecting evidence for it is another. I and others only came up with idea because there were things that did not fit, not because we said that we do not like this or that about HLV (which we do but this is not the reason). For example, I posted the three shots of Mary with her head to the side and her hands crossed in a strange way. Two of these are definitely in Sherlock's mind. So why not the third? Then there was the question of Mycroft's tie change between HLV and TAB. They are not that sloppy. 

As I said before, in TSoT we have a whole scene that was discussed for weeks before anyone realised it was just in Sherlock's head. And I cannot remember anyone complaining about that. True, it was just one scene, but it was the first step towards transitioning from reality to mind palace without warning and without this transition being clearly discernible.

These are attempts at explaining things without accusing the team of sloppiness. And I really, really would never be so unfair and compare Moftiss with the Dallas writers. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png



 

Last edited by SusiGo (June 11, 2016 6:07 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 11, 2016 6:11 pm  #56


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

I can honestly say that this whole thread is the only one on the forum to date, that just baffles me completely...
This possibly isn't the place, but the only thing that gets me with HLV is why show Andrew/Moriarty at the end?
I mean is it an official goodbye(do they usually do that?!) or is it the one example I could think of, where the team genuinely troll us?
I was just about to say I didn't remember TSOT one, but then I realise it's the computer one.
Having said that, it was hardly a very important scene unlike the vital events in HLV.


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June 11, 2016 6:17 pm  #57


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Why does it baffle you? With TAB we got an episode that takes place in Sherlock's mind and so far no one was able to say if anything in it is real. So I think it does make very much sense to discuss what may be real or not in the show. 
What I love most about the show is the fact that we are challenge to have our own thoughts instead of buying everything we are told. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 11, 2016 6:24 pm  #58


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

But at some point, do we need to know what is real, to actually follow the story?
I really want to see Mark and Steven's vision- not what I create for myself...I mean I do that in my own time!
Having said that, I think you raise an interesting point:
I personally draw a distinction in speculation on what may happen in future...and on what we have already seen.
I mean both are valid and of course, some points may not be settled until the future.
But I think to gain the clearest picture, we need to take an over all view.
For me that is watching(and re-watching) the show, watching Setlock and listening  to/reading/ watching interviews.
I have to say, I find Setlock exciting/frustrating in equal measureI


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June 11, 2016 6:30 pm  #59


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

I agree with you, of course they will have to show what is real. 

You say you want to see Mark and Steven's vision - but the fact that this forum has been existing for more than four years shows that we all have different opinions about this vision. In a work of art there is not one true reading, there can be lots of them. And most artists appreciate that. I cannot remember Shakespeare giving any instructions about how his works have to be understood. And this is precisely what makes them so timeless. There are hundreds of readings of Hamlet alone and they are all based on the same play. Which is amazing. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 11, 2016 6:34 pm  #60


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Well I take your point.
But I consider Shakespeare to be the original that others have adapted.
ACD is the original, that the BBC adapt and it's their adaptation I love and want to continue watching.
But again you remind me of another interesting point: Mark and Steven both acknolwledge the Canon they work from is far from perfect and I feel that issue may at least mark the BBC series in some way.


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