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June 8, 2016 7:39 pm  #1


The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Read (or skim) through this, if you haven't already: http://skulls-and-tea.tumblr.com/post/136587029601/mycroft-wearing-two-different-ties-between-hlvs

The most relevant part being:
Mycroft's tie during every part of TAB is 'inverse', meaning NONE of the scenes in the special are technically real (and the writers have suggested as much, haven't they?)

There's only one thing we can know for sure, whether or not anything we saw in TAB actually happened: Sherlock's clearly having a hard time distinguishing reality from Mind Palace fiction, and this may be a result of the overdose he took before getting on the plane. We know he ODed, because even if TAB was a dream, this is still Sherlock's POV, and he tells us this is what he did.

So, if that's true, then technically S4 could open up with absolutely anything, including the plane never turning back and the whole "Miss me?" thing not actually happening. And maybe he never gets on the plane in the first place? Maybe he didn't show up? Maybe the tarmac scene never happened at all? What if all of S4E1 is in some kind of drug-induced coma?

We've been theorizing on the assumption that what we're seeing on #setlock is reality, and the main concerns I've been reading generally reduce down to this: Have they written themselves into a corner? John, living in quiet Suburbia with his assassin wife, and a baby no less? How are they going to get him back into Baker Street, where he belongs? Would they actually kill a baby (not literally of course) for the sake of drama?

Whichever way you look at it, IF what we've seen is real, then there's not many satisfactory ways of resolving the plot. I couldn't think of any, in fact. Whichever way it goes, it would feel... wrong. Mary takes the baby and leaves, it feels wrong. Baby dies because of Mary or because of John or because of Sherlock or because of a villain... feels wrong. John stays a daddy and lives in a mouldy basement and Sherlock lives in 221B for the rest of their lives, uuuuuuutterly wrong, wrong wrong wrong. It's just wrong all round.

Except, what if none of it is real?

What if everything we've seen from S4 -- including Baby Watson dressed up as pink bunny Bluebell and then conspicuously absent since E1 -- what if this is just Sherlock having a Mind Palace Nightmare of sorts? The baby stuff could be a figment of that false reality.

But, we see Mary pregnant, don't we? Well, yes. That's the hole in the theory, currently. But it gives us another couple of 'outs' that didn't exist before. One, she might miscarry before ever giving birth. Or two, the pregancy was yet another a carefully crafted lie in order to keep John, which all her other lies have been about so far. (if E1 setlock is reality, it's much less likely Mary was faking that, having magically produced a real, actual baby and all.)

And reality is still crumbling even in E2, it seems. We've seen E2 setlock, where Sherlock seems to suddenly find himself standing in the middle of a busy street, no idea how he got there, standing in traffic with a cabbie yelling "Do you even know where you are?" -- and on the same street, a backdrop of the 221B living room that Sherlock apparently 'walks through' like an invisible barrier. And, how curious, he's growing stubble, like coma patients do...?

We've yet to see any E3 stuff, but I'm starting to worry that most of S4 will be Sherlock's coma dreams. Still, there's a lot of holes in this idea, and I don't think all of it is correct, but I've put my scattered thoughts on the matter together as best I can.

Thoughts? Tear it apart, please.


Doomsteady on AO3 & Tumblr
 

June 8, 2016 8:17 pm  #2


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

First, pictures are better than descriptions, so here are the ties you're talking about:
HLV:
http://www.cjoint.com/doc/16_06/FFiumUF48Wr_HLV-.png


TAB:
http://www.cjoint.com/doc/16_06/FFiupnhgfor_TAB1.png
http://www.cjoint.com/doc/16_06/FFiupwMnPxr_TAB2.png

Nevertheless, this is Sherlock we're talking about, not Dallas. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't pay attention to that detail. The two scenes were probably not shot at the same moment, hence the tie change. 

Btw, even if this has nothing to do with Mycroft's tie, here is something I noticed while making the screenshots: when Mycroft opens his notebook, you can see a rotation matrix and a Maxwell equation with a sign mistake. Interesting... Or not.
http://www.cjoint.com/doc/16_06/FFiuznybXor_TAB3.png

Last edited by Ewilan (June 8, 2016 8:25 pm)

 

June 8, 2016 8:19 pm  #3


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

As one of the people behind EMP theory (parts of HLV are not real either), I have nothing to tear apart. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

I love these speculations and theories about what is real and what is not. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 8, 2016 8:22 pm  #4


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

People tend to explain too much with MP these days. Having your character wake up all of a sudden in the end is the sort of a reset button that self-respecting writers push only once.

I too think that Moftiss have written themselves into a corner but I have all the trust in them to know the perfect(ly unexpected) way out, because I think they've been planning all that well in advance. Being written into a corner with a shitty explanation in the end usually happens to shows where every episode is written by a different writer with no particular respect for continuity.


-----
"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.gif Context matters.
 

June 8, 2016 8:44 pm  #5


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Well, the writers chose to have a whole episode set in Sherlock's mind. This is not people explaining it, this is what we see in the show. 

I remember us discussing the multi-laptop scene that seemed such a conundrum. Until someone on tumblr realised it takes place in Sherlock's mind. It happens in the episode without any announcement or explanation. So there is enough precedent for this happening and it has just been extended from a short scene to a whole episode. Personally I do not find anything wrong with it. It is an artistic choice and I love TAB just because of it. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 8, 2016 9:07 pm  #6


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Declaring a whole ep happening in MP won't work twice.
It can happen of course that all the baby stuff in E1 will takes 2 minutes of screen time and happens in Sherlock's MP, but... meh. That's a cheap cop out. Our heroes need to deal with the situation in the real world (baby, Mary, lonely 221B...), MP just doesn't have the same drama attached to it since it's not real.

And in the setlock thread we are definitely jumping on the MP explanation every time something doesn't add up The universe (and the writers) is (hopefully) rarely so lazy.


-----
"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.gif Context matters.
 

June 8, 2016 9:18 pm  #7


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

ewige, I tend to agree with you. It's time to get real again. In the end MP is just another word for 'dream', and it certainly works occasionally to use a technique like that when you're telling a story. But please, there has to be more to "Sherlock" than just MP - and in fact S1 and S2 did work beautifully without any extensive usage of MP.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

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"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 8, 2016 9:50 pm  #8


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

I hope so too, honestly. Because once the viewer's trust in what they see is broken, they'll always be questioning "is this really happening?" and that's a very bad thing for any story.


Doomsteady on AO3 & Tumblr
     Thread Starter
 

June 8, 2016 11:58 pm  #9


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

It's an interesting/fascinating idea---but seems complicated and I don't think they would go quite so far to nix part of HLV episode as part of the drug induced dream,  I also don't get the impression that season 4 opens with coma scenes. They did show Sherlock out about town around London though during first weeks' of shooting so he seems to be his active self in opener.  Big MP scene seems to be second episode and there's so much they filmed away from prying eyes that we really cannot tell how this will develop.  I'm an optimist though and predict we will be on another fun roller coaster ride.  :-)


I lost count
 

June 9, 2016 6:13 am  #10


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

GimmeCat wrote:

I hope so too, honestly. Because once the viewer's trust in what they see is broken, they'll always be questioning "is this really happening?" and that's a very bad thing for any story.

The way I see it, that has already happened. Maybe not for the casual viewer, but it seems that fandom isn't talking about anything else anymore. And of course it's great that there are so many discussions going on in the fandom and that people are wracking their brains. But I think the danger might also be that the writers decide to keep doing this in order to make their story more complicated or fanciful... and I'm all for complicated story-telling, but it all has to add up in the end, and I'm afraid Mofftiss might continue to use MP whenever things wouldn't add up otherwise.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

http://picload.org/image/lcpldgo/berlinsigneu2.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgc/berlinsigneu3.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgw/berlinsigneu.jpghttp://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 9, 2016 6:30 am  #11


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

SolarSystem wrote:

I'm afraid Mofftiss might continue to use MP whenever things wouldn't add up otherwise.
 

My other (sci-fi) fandoms use the reset button quite a lot due to their very nature (oh, it's a parallel universe - or a clone - or a mind possession - or an alien-induced dream - so scratch the last ep kids, it's actually never happened). I trust Moftiss are quite familiar with this plot device and have no great respect for it when used as a cop out.

I believe the will keep telling us something new thru the MP sequences, sure, but never use it as a reset button (to make Mary un-pregnant for example). They are way too classy for that. And they have a plan.


-----
"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.gif Context matters.
 

June 9, 2016 6:44 am  #12


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Lovely is the fandom that can laugh about themselves (and the writers):

http://the-seventh-stranger.tumblr.com/post/145643968745/enjoytheelephant-gatiss-have-you-seen-extended


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 9, 2016 6:59 am  #13


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

ewige wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

I'm afraid Mofftiss might continue to use MP whenever things wouldn't add up otherwise.
 

My other (sci-fi) fandoms use the reset button quite a lot due to their very nature (oh, it's a parallel universe - or a clone - or a mind possession - or an alien-induced dream - so scratch the last ep kids, it's actually never happened). I trust Moftiss are quite familiar with this plot device and have no great respect for it when used as a cop out.

Well, just two words: "Doctor" and "Who". Moffat and Gatiss are quite experienced when it comes to that kind of story-telling. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
 
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

http://picload.org/image/lcpldgo/berlinsigneu2.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgc/berlinsigneu3.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgw/berlinsigneu.jpghttp://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 9, 2016 7:14 am  #14


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Now that you mention it Solar ... the thing was that other series involved time travel and aliens and superpowers and just about anything could happen, and yes, they have (frustratingly!) played with that.  I feel that Sherlock is supposed to be more grounded, especially this modern day telling.  I would hate the mind palace to take over, because again, anything could happen.   TAB worked as a one-off and I loved it, but I do still find myself feeling "so what?" about it a little - what did it actually change in the real world?  (I know we have to wait for S4 to find out!).  

 

June 9, 2016 7:20 am  #15


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

ewige wrote:

I believe the will keep telling us something new thru the MP sequences, sure, but never use it as a reset button (to make Mary un-pregnant for example). They are way too classy for that. And they have a plan.

Oh, and I forgot in my last post: Well, if EMP nshould turn out to be true, then Sherlock will not have killed Magnussen. If that isn't a reset button, then I don't know what is. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

(And I'm not saying that this would be all negative, don't get me wrong. Depending on the writing it might turn out to be just the perfect thing. I'm just saying: There you go, reset button. Maybe a 'classy' reset button, but still.) 
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

http://picload.org/image/lcpldgo/berlinsigneu2.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgc/berlinsigneu3.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgw/berlinsigneu.jpghttp://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 9, 2016 7:23 am  #16


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Sorry, just trying to catch up with this thread, so I haven't yet quite got what EMP is?
Oh I certainly think Sherlock killed CAM.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 9, 2016 7:38 am  #17


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

EMP suggests, among other things, that everything in HLV after the Watson domestic happened in Sherlock's MP. So he would not have killed CAM.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

http://picload.org/image/lcpldgo/berlinsigneu2.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgc/berlinsigneu3.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgw/berlinsigneu.jpghttp://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

June 9, 2016 7:40 am  #18


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Sherlock killing CAM is the best love confession ever. So I totally hope that happened for real.

I just love the way Moftiss resolved TRF (where I too thought they'd written themselves in a corner) so I have the faith they'll do great with all the weird stuff that needs resolving this season http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smug.png


-----
"The posh boy loves the dominatrix." http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.gif Context matters.
 

June 9, 2016 7:42 am  #19


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

For the sake of completeness - here is my post in which I coined the term. It is not my idea alone and it is not written in stone. Discussion is fine but one should know what we are talking about:

http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/137622767856/emp-theory-or-the-extended-mind-palace-theory

There are also other interesting metas on this - everything based on observations from the show. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

For example there is one idea that lets the MP start only after the 221B scene, so Leinster Gardens would be real. As I said, this is up for serious discussion. If you have other explanations for the things people observed - just let them come. I would love to read them. 

Last edited by SusiGo (June 9, 2016 7:44 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 9, 2016 7:53 am  #20


Re: The Tie Conundrum, and why S4 can't be trusted (Meta, Theory, SPOILER)

Again maybe I'm missing something cos I'm a bit behind...
So why would Sherlock have been sent to Exile if not for murder?
Was he just being sent on the mission then?
Why have the pretend scene of shooting CAM?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

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