BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



January 28, 2016 8:31 am  #1


Sherlock as a boy

This is a little meta about Archie/Billy and young Sherlock and why we get two young Sherlocks in the show. I am posting a link since there are photos as well:

http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/138154037116/a-tale-of-two-young-sherlocks

And an interesting commentary by deducingbbcsherlock:

Totally agreed. Louis’s version is more associated with Mycroft (calling him a stupid boy in HLV, and then also it’s actually Mycroft’s perspective when we see him again at Appledore). The Louis version is tied into “that day” whatever the hell that is) (the other one’s death?). The Archie version is earlier, pre-that day.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 28, 2016 8:32 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 28, 2016 9:19 am  #2


Re: Sherlock as a boy

You know what, I always thought Adam Greaves-Neal was probably one of the boys who auditioned for the part of young Sherlock - and perhaps they liked him but he was too young for the part or something - so they gave him another part. But I do like the meta giving a deeper meaning to his mirroring of Sherlock


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

January 28, 2016 6:55 pm  #3


Re: Sherlock as a boy

My personal theory is still that Archie is a young Steven Moffat rather than a young Sherlock - a kind of fulfillment of a childhood wish to have been there at the best man's speech and to have helped Sherlock solve a crime!    (Of course it would have made more sense to have Louis play the part in that case, but I still like the idea ).

 

January 28, 2016 7:30 pm  #4


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Interesting Tumblr post, I'm not sure how strong of an argument it is but it's an interesting thought.  I don't know about it being two different parts of Sherlock (I don't understand the bit about Archie being more emotional), but the part of one being associated with different people and experiences are interesting.
Since the young Sherlock we see in Hist Last Vow is associated with Mycroft, and the episode before Sherlock tells Mycroft "I'm not a child anymore," that that little Sherlock represents something that Sherlock wants to put behind him, distance himself from.
On the other hand, he has an affinity for Archie, who is not connected to his past but is a lot like he would have been as a child.  And when he's advising Archie about how to perform at the wedding and telling Archie to wear the outfit, he tells Archie it's because "grownups" like that.  Archie asks why and Sherlock says "I don't know, I'll ask one." He's identifying himself as not being a "grownup," as if in some way he were also a child.  The child that exists through Archie still exists in him.

[Side note: Sherlock wears suits pretty much all the time.  Sure, they're not the same as the even more formal suits worn at the wedding but still..."grownups like that sort of thing." Is it a performance for Sherlock? Just spit-balling that one, as it came to mind as I was writing the rest.]

As for what you say, Liberty, I can kind of see how that could be, Steven's (and perhaps Mark's also) desire to have wanted to be around Sherlock Holmes to live through the experience of seeing his great mind solving a mystery.  I had never thought of that.



Clueing for looks.
 

January 28, 2016 8:48 pm  #5


Re: Sherlock as a boy

I'd like to share my thoughts on that. And on the "since that day" part of the comment given by deducingbbcsherlock.

I too find the thought interesting.
I certainly agree with imagining young Sherlock as "eager, curious with unusual interests, desperate to be taken seriously by those around him, emotional" although I am not sure to know how Archie is especially "emotional" when he spontaneously embraces people.
The emotional side of him is, for me, shown through Louis-as-Sherlock.
I think that there are indeed two sides to Sherlock -an eager person there's not a moment to lose with extremely weird interests "Hanging?" "I take a professional interest" who also happens to be emotional Well I'm not NOW!
While we can say that Mycroft would not necessarily have disapproved of his brother's quirks and interests, he would have indeed strongly disapproved of the emotions that clouded [his] judgement (Young HLV Sherlock).
I agree that there are two sides to himself and that he must accept them, and I think that this will be explored deeper in later series.

On ever since that day
We know that, if we keep it simple, "that day" can "just" refer to "the day Sherlock OD'd when he was in his early 20s".
But I'd like to argue that we must go deeper, because it seems to me that there is a reason behind this incident. Something linked to "the Other one" -whoever that is. And Sherlock's fall into this particularly nefarious villain's clutches might have been triggered by the loss of his pet dog, and amplified tenfolds when "that day" happened.
A thought just hit me -what if The Other One was a family member but not a sibling? Uncle Rudy who was already mentioned in the series for cross dressing -and using? back on the sauce? So very like Uncle Rudy (...) cross-dressing would have been better better for whom? Is that a way of saying that the family name is something special and should be protected?
Uncle Rudy may have been very much liked by young Mycroft and Sherlock, was forced to leave them behind because of sentiment? Maybe he had had an outburst of brotherly compassion (however I turn the sentence it sounds bad...apologies ...) which left him in the obligation to forsake the young boys. I refuse to think he was set aside from the family. I prefer to think he deliberately left.
 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be lost without my blogger.
"It’s not a ‘gang’ show, it’s the Sherlock and John show. It’s about developing their characters and their relationship, and the characters drawn into their orbit.”  Steven Moffat



 
 

January 28, 2016 9:41 pm  #6


Re: Sherlock as a boy

I like your thoughts about "the other one" being family, someone close. And I agree that "that day" may have a deeper meaning and will be revisited in the coming episodes. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 28, 2016 9:41 pm  #7


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Liberty wrote:

My personal theory is still that Archie is a young Steven Moffat rather than a young Sherlock - a kind of fulfillment of a childhood wish to have been there at the best man's speech and to have helped Sherlock solve a crime!    (Of course it would have made more sense to have Louis play the part in that case, but I still like the idea ).

But then, it's quite obvious that the boys they've chosen (and esp. Archie) resemble Sherlock quite a lot.
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 28, 2016 10:12 pm  #8


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Louis looks a bit more like Steven than Archie does though .

 

January 28, 2016 10:52 pm  #9


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Liberty wrote:

Louis looks a bit more like Steven than Archie does though .

 
Can't think why... 

He's good though bless his cotton socks... "Not dead yet."


---------------
It's not really a ship, it's more like a life raft.



 
 

January 28, 2016 11:13 pm  #10


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Mixed thoughts on this.  I think seeing Archie as a young Sherlock is a bit of a stretch . I think it is meant to be a contrast with the way Mycroft treated Sherlock , and the way Sherlock treats Archie .
Sherlock understands and encourages and is kind to Archie , the way he wishes people did him ?
Sherlock in S01 seems to be a Sherlock following Mycrofts example ,all logic and denying sentiment ,  and yet also trying to break free of the influence because of a fall out.
Perhaps because of what happened to the other one .


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 28, 2016 11:17 pm  #11


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Little Weed wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Louis looks a bit more like Steven than Archie does though .

 
Can't think why...

He's good though bless his cotton socks... "Not dead yet."

This is the second time in two days that I have see the phrase "bless his cotton socks."
I had never heard it before now but I intend to start using it immediately.   

/end off topic aside/


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 29, 2016 7:48 am  #12


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Let me explain what I brought me to the Archie/Sherlock association. For me the scene in TGG in which Sherlock speaks about the death of Carl Powers is a key scene. We learn that Sherlock suspected a murder, went to the police, was not believed. Twenty years later Moriarty is back with a vengeance, the boy murderer has turned into a consulting criminal wreaking havoc on half the world, including Sherlock. 

Now take the Archie scene at the wedding banquet. Here an intelligent, maybe precocious little boy is believed, is taken seriously and because of this Sherlock manages to prevent a murder at John's wedding. Therefore I think Sherlock sees himself in Archie, the boy who had the right ideas but was not taken seriously by an adult world. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 29, 2016 9:12 am  #13


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Liberty wrote:

Louis looks a bit more like Steven than Archie does though .

In his case, we have to believe it's young Sherlock because they tell us so, in Archie's case, the resemblance is quite stunning, in appearance and behaviour.
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 29, 2016 9:24 am  #14


Re: Sherlock as a boy

What I meant was that Louis would have been more suitable to play a mini Steven Moffat!   But never mind, it was just a throwaway coment, obviously not as mildly amusing as I liked to think
...........................
There's also the unseen boy in TGG, whom Sherlock feels an affinity with - into spies rather than detectives, but also could be an aspect of Sherlock's childhood.

 

January 29, 2016 11:11 am  #15


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Here are some more thoughts:

Sherlock/Archie/Jim - a long-term plan

Sorry but I cannot get this out of my head. Because there is an interesting connection between the Carl Powers case and the “invisible man with the invisible knife”. 

In TSoT Sherlock chooses to believe a child. He does not belittle or dismiss Archie’s idea but believes him and thereby manages to realise who is in danger. It is a decisive step in preventing Sholto from dying at John’s wedding. Sherlock may save the life by his deductions and John by his medical knowledge but it is Archie who sets it all in motion. 

Which reminds me of another boy who suspected that a murder had happened, went to the police, was not believed by the adult world. The murderer went free for the next twenty years, turning into a consulting criminal wreaking havoc on half the world. 

And then a similar but far more devastating thing happens - those in power, i.e. police and the media, again do not believe Sherlock but choose to believe that Sherlock himself is staging those crimes, not Moriarty.  

A lot of people made Jim Moriarty possible. 

Which, btw, reminds me of Mark’s recent words about the Moriarty arc:

“There’s a master plan. (…) There’s a plan. There is a long-term plan - very long-term.”


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 29, 2016 12:26 pm  #16


Re: Sherlock as a boy

SusiGo wrote:

Here are some more thoughts:

Sherlock/Archie/Jim - a long-term plan

Sorry but I cannot get this out of my head. Because there is an interesting connection between the Carl Powers case and the “invisible man with the invisible knife”. 

In TSoT Sherlock chooses to believe a child. He does not belittle or dismiss Archie’s idea but believes him and thereby manages to realise who is in danger. It is a decisive step in preventing Sholto from dying at John’s wedding. Sherlock may save the life by his deductions and John by his medical knowledge but it is Archie who sets it all in motion. 

Which reminds me of another boy who suspected that a murder had happened, went to the police, was not believed by the adult world. The murderer went free for the next twenty years, turning into a consulting criminal wreaking havoc on half the world. 

And then a similar but far more devastating thing happens - those in power, i.e. police and the media, again do not believe Sherlock but choose to believe that Sherlock himself is staging those crimes, not Moriarty.  

A lot of people made Jim Moriarty possible. 

Which, btw, reminds me of Mark’s recent words about the Moriarty arc:

“There’s a master plan. (…) There’s a plan. There is a long-term plan - very long-term.”

Indeed. Good spot Susi... also liking the idea of a very long term plan. ;)
 


---------------
It's not really a ship, it's more like a life raft.



 
 

January 29, 2016 1:06 pm  #17


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Had never thought of the relation between Archie and the Carl Powers case.  Much new to think about.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 29, 2016 2:17 pm  #18


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Yes, well spotted, Susi.
A long-term plan. I like that.

 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be lost without my blogger.
"It’s not a ‘gang’ show, it’s the Sherlock and John show. It’s about developing their characters and their relationship, and the characters drawn into their orbit.”  Steven Moffat



 
 

January 29, 2016 2:18 pm  #19


Re: Sherlock as a boy

Thank you. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 29, 2016 4:46 pm  #20


Re: Sherlock as a boy

I love the idea of The Plan.
But what is The Plan?!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum