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January 5, 2016 10:08 pm  #21


Re: Three Johns

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Poor Sherlock.
He ceased to be "married to his work" during HLV and during TAB.
He needs to reach the deepest trenches of his mind, to dig out the new Sherlock from under the ruins before he can continue to do his work and before he can face the RL John as a detective again... this is now more important to him than any case...
But "middle" John doesn´t understand.
Middle John now regards him with contempt and ascribes Sherlock´s wounded heart to his addiction...

Oh, this love is so cruel...! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png


It´s wrong to expect tranquillity in the path of Love.
May the heart that seeks remedy for its pains be rent!
There is no place for sweetness and peacefullness in the abode of beloved -
it demands submission and the burning of worlds, not inexperience and uncaring.
A true man is not bound to an earthly existence -
what is needed is a different world and a different man to be made.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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January 5, 2016 10:38 pm  #22


Re: Three Johns

I think what bugs me is that this narrative makes Sherlock a supplicant striving to "become worthy" of John--
It's like he must destroy himself in order to finally rate highly enough in John's esteem to become a "Real Boy".

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 5, 2016 10:38 pm)

 

January 6, 2016 12:39 am  #23


Re: Three Johns

I don´t think Sherlock must destroy himself - he must rebuild itself. He experienced something of a burn-out in RL, he must restore himself before he could be able to work again and to function around people who surround him... that is now more important than his work.
But the "Modern Day" John in Sherlock´s mind doesn´t understand that... it´s him who demands perfect Sherlock out of a fractured one... althrough it was his RL counterpart who made Sherlock into these fractures. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png

Sherlock doesn not believe in the help of the modern day John anymore - he must contact the idealised, Victorian One, to help him out of trouble....


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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     Thread Starter
 

January 6, 2016 1:01 am  #24


Re: Three Johns

nakahara wrote:

I don´t think Sherlock must destroy himself - he must rebuild itself. He experienced something of a burn-out in RL, he must restore himself before he could be able to work again and to function around people who surround him... that is now more important than his work.
But the "Modern Day" John in Sherlock´s mind doesn´t understand that... it´s him who demands perfect Sherlock out of a fractured one... althrough it was his RL counterpart who made Sherlock into these fractures. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png

Sherlock doesn not believe in the help of the modern day John anymore - he must contact the idealised, Victorian One, to help him out of trouble....

 
I can see that--I think you said that a lot better than I could...

 

January 6, 2016 6:51 am  #25


Re: Three Johns

I don't know if it's just because I don't want to see this to be true, but I don't really think this is the case.
Then again, there are those words of Mycroft's(to paraphrase): please look after him, John.
I hoped this was because Mycroft knew he could rely on John to do this and after all, John is the only one Sherlock ever does listen to. Well, other than writing the list.
Ostensibly for me there has always been a number of John's:
1.The ex-soldier.
2. The doctor
3. The colleague
4. The flat mate
5. The friend
6. The husband.
7. ...well we may get to see John the father.

But I think in all of these states, we see someone who loves and cares about Sherlock and tries to support him in any way he can.
But he does have his own life and he cannot be at Sherlock's call 24/7.
But having said that. Do we think he's now given up the doctoring? 
If the Watsons stay together in their own home, somebody needs to be in paid employment...
But John could really do with some financial security, so that he is able to support Sherlock when he does need him.


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January 6, 2016 8:08 am  #26


Re: Three Johns

The fact that, as Sherlock sort of said himself in the special, that the 2 MP John's are there so he can see himself through John's eyes... that makes my heart break, how cruel the second one is. 

I am sure that's how Sherlock images John would react to him... that John is going to turn cold and want to punish him for being 'stupid' enough to take drugs and get caught... 

The times I have given into an addiction... my worst worry is always that someone finds out... especially someone close to me, like my BF. He knows it's bad if I start with "Please, please don't be mad at me". 

I saw that in Sherlock... when he had the modern day mind palace... he was so certain they would all be mad at him 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Don't talk out loud, you lower the IQ of the whole street!"
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January 6, 2016 8:20 pm  #27


Re: Three Johns

http://45.media.tumblr.com/39ea43487eb9a8c8aeee5a56cd999afc/tumblr_o0bwrk1B8F1rm08mpo1_250.gif

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This sequence puzzles me to no end.
Why is "middle John" so harsh here? Why was this "pompous prick" and the threat of violence "I´ll punch your lights out" neccessary?

Case-wise, Sherlock and John are already hurrying to save Mary. Sherlock was even so concerned about her he left Baker Street after a dose of cocaine, still badly out of it. As a human, he couldn´t act more sympathetically and with bigger care. And not to forget - he didn´t endanger Mary. Mary walked into danger on her own. Sherlock is in no way responsible for that and he is also not responsible for witholding the informations about Mary from John - he didn´t know that she is a spy at all.

So why the harshness, why the agressivity? What did he done to earn such wrath here?

Here are some musings on the scene from Tumblr users:

http://milarvela.tumblr.com/post/136481364978/lostlogs-milarvela-marybegone

They have a theory that this is the actual line John said to Sherlock during HLV, shortly before the scene at Leinster Gardens.... but is it really that? Would John say such think to a weak, escaped-from-hospital Sherlock before "Mary reveal"?

But if not, why it´s there? It isn´t connected to anything that happens in a MP case, it isn´t related to drugs Sherlock took, it doesn´t seem to me like it´s connected to Sherlock´s feelings of unworthiness... I am at the end of my wits with this one.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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     Thread Starter
 

January 6, 2016 8:26 pm  #28


Re: Three Johns

I don't know about in HLV.
And I know it's modern John saying the line in TAB.
But I do think it's Sherlock imagining how modern John would react, in that Victorian setting...
Yes(and this is where it all gets to onion levels of complexity)-it's about the Victorian situation.
It's John thinking that Sherlock is enjoying one of his little games, when John is the anguished husband, only wanting to make his wife safe.


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January 6, 2016 8:42 pm  #29


Re: Three Johns

besleybean wrote:

I don't know about in HLV.
And I know it's modern John saying the line in TAB.
But I do think it's Sherlock imagining how modern John would react, in that Victorian setting...
Yes(and this is where it all gets to onion levels of complexity)-it's about the Victorian situation.
It's John thinking that Sherlock is enjoying one of his little games, when John is the anguished husband, only wanting to make his wife safe.

In middle ages, teachers who taught children of high-nobility had also one "normal" boy mixed among them.
When the teacher was angry at some of his noble pupils, he punished "normal boy" instead. He couldn´t touch those with anointed heads and so he released his rage by hitting the ordinary person, although that person had nothing to do with the situation at all.

So are you saying that in this tale, Sherlock serves as "a normal boy" for the Victorian (and modern) John?
The moment John is pissed off at something, he takes it out on Sherlock?
Hmmm....?

Last edited by nakahara (January 6, 2016 8:43 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
     Thread Starter
 

January 6, 2016 8:44 pm  #30


Re: Three Johns

No, I think John has just been told his wife is in danger and he's in a state of blind panic.
He doesn't want Sherlock prevaricating.


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January 6, 2016 8:49 pm  #31


Re: Three Johns

The harshness comes from Sherlock himself.  He is imagining how John would respond to him and Sherlock always blames himself.


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"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
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January 6, 2016 8:51 pm  #32


Re: Three Johns

Is that similar to when he imagines John's voice in TEH?


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January 6, 2016 8:51 pm  #33


Re: Three Johns

nakahara wrote:

besleybean wrote:

I don't know about in HLV.
And I know it's modern John saying the line in TAB.
But I do think it's Sherlock imagining how modern John would react, in that Victorian setting...
Yes(and this is where it all gets to onion levels of complexity)-it's about the Victorian situation.
It's John thinking that Sherlock is enjoying one of his little games, when John is the anguished husband, only wanting to make his wife safe.

In middle ages, teachers who taught children of high-nobility had also one "normal" boy mixed among them.
When the teacher was angry at some of his noble pupils, he punished "normal boy" instead. He couldn´t touch those with anointed heads and so he released his rage by hitting the ordinary person, although that person had nothing to do with the situation at all.

So are you saying that in this tale, Sherlock serves as "a normal boy" for the Victorian (and modern) John?
The moment John is pissed off at something, he takes it out on Sherlock?
Hmmm....?

Actually, during HLV, yeah. That rings true. 

 

January 6, 2016 8:52 pm  #34


Re: Three Johns

But isn't he annoyed with Sherlock over the drug use...like in TAB?


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January 6, 2016 8:57 pm  #35


Re: Three Johns

I'm thinking that some of John's voice in Sherlock's head is sort of an echo-- in TEH, what Sherlock was hearing were comments that John had already made on the show-- when we were seeing things from John's POV. So-- it can't all be Sherlock's perception of John's tendency to angry threats and rather hurtful comments; Sherlock had already had examples of things John would do or say before Tab. I think that's partly why his inner John is so harsh. 

 

January 6, 2016 10:26 pm  #36


Re: Three Johns

I quite like the theory about the line being in HLV (unheard by us).  It kind of makes sense that Sherlock would have John repeat a line that he's already said.  On the other hand, as you say, Nakahara, it would be an awful and shocking thing to say to Sherlock at that point.   Whereas in TAB, it's aggressive, but more justified - Sherlock has told John that Mary is in danger but then refuses to say any more - of course he's upset and annoyed that Sherlock is withholding information. 

I think I'll have to reserve judgment for now. 

 

January 9, 2016 11:19 pm  #37


Re: Three Johns

It just occured to me that in TAb it´s the first time we actually see John in Sherlock´s mind-palace. And John´s presence there is the key element that enables Sherlock to snap out of his emotional quagmire successfully. What a difference from HLV, where John never appeared in MP!

Last edited by nakahara (January 9, 2016 11:20 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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     Thread Starter
 

January 9, 2016 11:26 pm  #38


Re: Three Johns

I think there is one instance in TSoT where John appears in the MP - the scene with all the laptops where John is wearing different clothes from a moment before. As for HLV, yes, and I am very happy about it. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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January 10, 2016 12:23 pm  #39


Re: Three Johns

I think you're right too, Nakahara, other than the laptop scene. It's a beautiful analogy really, that John is the one Sherlock reaches for to snap him out of it! It says a lot about how Sherlock views John. 

If Moriarty is the virus, John is the antivirus 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Don't talk out loud, you lower the IQ of the whole street!"
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"Oh Watson. Nothing made me... I made me"
"Luuuuurve Ginger Nuts"

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#IbelieveInSeries5
 

January 10, 2016 12:24 pm  #40


Re: Three Johns

I still think it's only really John that Sherlock listens to, or at least cares about his opinion.
It's John he doesn't want to let down.


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