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January 3, 2016 4:51 pm  #21


Re: The Feminist Aspect

I know, fantastic!


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January 3, 2016 5:39 pm  #22


Re: The Feminist Aspect

I have a question: Which one of the woman later pretended to be the bride? It is hard to recognize anyone with all the make-up.

 

January 3, 2016 6:48 pm  #23


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Liberty wrote:

I also love LeStrade's obliviousness!

"I'm part of a campaign, you know. Votes for women",
"And are you for or against?"

 Not an uncommon response at that particular time in history. A fair percentage of women were completely against the idea; and those who supported the vote had split into various factions. Those who wanted full voting rights for all, those who did not want the vote to go to the working class; whether male or female,  those who believed only women of property or financially independant should be able to vote and those who believe it should not be extended beyond married women. 
A women in Marys position may have wanted the vote for herself; but not for her servants for instance.
 

 

January 3, 2016 6:51 pm  #24


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Good points.


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January 3, 2016 7:08 pm  #25


Re: The Feminist Aspect

dartmoordoggers wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I also love LeStrade's obliviousness!

"I'm part of a campaign, you know. Votes for women",
"And are you for or against?"

 Not an uncommon response at that particular time in history. A fair percentage of women were completely against the idea; and those who supported the vote had split into various factions. Those who wanted full voting rights for all, those who did not want the vote to go to the working class; whether male or female,  those who believed only women of property or financially independant should be able to vote and those who believe it should not be extended beyond married women. 
A women in Marys position may have wanted the vote for herself; but not for her servants for instance.
 

Very good point, dartmoor. 
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 3, 2016 7:30 pm  #26


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Swanpride wrote:

I have a question: Which one of the woman later pretended to be the bride? It is hard to recognize anyone with all the make-up.

It's difficult to see, but it looks to me as if it's Janine (in the maze) when Sherlock says "the women I .. we have lied to and betrayed" and Molly (in the window) with "ignored and disparaged".  It also cuts to Janine and then Molly in the church straight after the clips.  It makes sense in the context of what Sherlock is saying, and Janine's story is a parallel (wooed and rejected). 

Last edited by Liberty (January 3, 2016 7:32 pm)

 

January 6, 2016 12:54 am  #27


Re: The Feminist Aspect

http://49.media.tumblr.com/a9f40d6365f3c335bcefc7422366d905/tumblr_o0ecynpWzD1r2z1wbo1_500.gif

http://45.media.tumblr.com/1a0b33b1c9bc95c2603b6ce6b28f0391/tumblr_o0ecynpWzD1r2z1wbo2_500.gif

http://49.media.tumblr.com/6c6334da3eb376ae8dcd9e9712bcc972/tumblr_o0ecynpWzD1r2z1wbo3_500.gif


Beautifully acted by Martin, funny scene... but very overdone from the feminist aspect.

a) not historically correct - Mary would never prepare the food for Sherlock and John anyway. The servant (and this could very well mean the male cook just as good as the female one) would do it for her. Also, Sherlock doesn´t dwell in John´s household, so their cook would actually just prepare food for John.

b) insincere - "Am I just to sit here?", "Yes... Those gentlemen." These sentences make us believe that Mary is a poor flower wilting in a corner while men have exciting adventures. But the moment later we are informed that Mary is actually a Mycroft´s agent, that she has plenty of adventures on her own and that she, unlike her husband, never bothered to inform John where she really spends time. So what exactly she was complaining about?

c) contemptuous - TAB does exactly what it criticises. It presents cooking as something inferior because cooking is traditionally connected with women. But the truth is that cooking, as well as other kinds of domestic work, is as normal and respectable work as any other. So why was Mary so insulted when being associated with it?

It is not true feminism to demand from a woman that she changes into a ninja or something similar....
True feminism is a realisation that a woman has worth as a human being even if she "just" cooks and changes nappies...

Last edited by nakahara (January 6, 2016 1:09 am)


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 6, 2016 2:33 am  #28


Re: The Feminist Aspect

The implication is that Mary is supposed to put things in motion to ensure that there will be a meal later...because, as the later scene points out, dealing with the personal is "her job". Which is the entire point of the scene, to show how ridiculous the notion is that some jobs are for men and other for women. As shown by Mary being way more capable in a job which doesn't involve her keeping an eye on the house personal. The point about "feminine characters" having to respected is made through Mrs Hudson, who is way more than just someone who serves food and shows people up to the rooms.

 

January 6, 2016 8:34 am  #29


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Though if a woman wants to investigate, she should be allowed to.


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January 6, 2016 9:05 am  #30


Re: The Feminist Aspect

besleybean wrote:

Though if a woman wants to investigate, she should be allowed to.

But that´s exactly what I am pointing out above - Mary is not only "allowed" to be an investigator here, she actually excells in it and is contacted by British Government to solve its problems. The complaint that "Mary is not allowed" is moot here.

Also, later, in a church scene, we see John to be actually relieved to find out that Mary is away from him all the time because she is a spy. He is not at all bothered to find out that she is an active woman with a successful career. We also don´t hear anything about John trying to hinder Mary´s cooperation with suffragetes.

Previously, John believed that his wife agrees with her work of a domestic worker and acted accordingly. It´s not his fault that Mary was not sincere with him.
 

Last edited by nakahara (January 6, 2016 9:06 am)


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 6, 2016 9:10 am  #31


Re: The Feminist Aspect

nakahara wrote:

Previously, John believed that his wife agrees with her work of a domestic worker and acted accordingly. It´s not his fault that Mary was not sincere with him.
 

You are right, I didn't see it that way before.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 6, 2016 9:23 am  #32


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Er, I'm not getting this.
How did Mary ever show that she happy about being cast in he domestic role?
She wanted to both see her husband and join him on his adventures.


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January 6, 2016 9:39 am  #33


Re: The Feminist Aspect

besleybean wrote:

Er, I'm not getting this.
How did Mary ever show that she happy about being cast in he domestic role?
She wanted to both see her husband and join him on his adventures.

I did not say that Mary showed it, I said that "John believed that". He presumed they have a traditional marriage where man is working to support the family and the wife is a domestic worker - the most normal form of marriage in that era.

(John wants everything in his married life to be normal even in modern times, remember?)

If Mary didn´t speak to him about her true career and true wishes, how was he to know she would feel at home investigating crimes? He is not a telepath.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 6, 2016 9:46 am  #34


Re: The Feminist Aspect

I get you on the modern version, but in Victorian times: that would have been difficult for any society woman to express and any professional man to accept.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 6, 2016 9:49 am  #35


Re: The Feminist Aspect

besleybean wrote:

I get you on the modern version, but in Victorian times: that would have been difficult for any society woman to express and any professional man to accept.

Well, as I mentioned above, John was absolutely OK with it when Mary revealed her true form to him there in the church....
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 6, 2016 9:52 am  #36


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Just as he's accepted her in the modern version.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 6, 2016 10:52 am  #37


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Well, Sherlock imagines Victorian John to be fine with what Victorian Mary does.That does not necessarily mean that real John also feels that way.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 6, 2016 11:13 am  #38


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Yes, I agree. 

Real John doesn't seem the type to make his wife cook his meals and clean the house. 
And in reality, he is aware that she is an ex-assassin perfectly capable of defending herself. And then, in his first mystery with Sherlock, he was almost killed by a woman. So I think he knows not to underestimate us. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


https://media.giphy.com/media/2Nq42dwvalGrS/giphy.gif

 
 

January 6, 2016 11:15 am  #39


Re: The Feminist Aspect

I'm sorry, I'm being incredibly thick today...
When was John almost killed by a woman?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 6, 2016 11:57 am  #40


Re: The Feminist Aspect

Mary (and remember, we are talking about mind Mary here, not real Mary) did tell John what she wants, he was just not listening.

 

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