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November 7, 2016 11:13 pm  #641


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

Schmiezi wrote:

Very interesting thoughts, Susi. I am dead tried right now but will give it some more thoughts tomorrow!

Me too! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 8, 2016 12:40 am  #642


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

I have a question, SusiGo--  in the hospital, Sherlock turned down his pca for morphine, because it "wasn't good for brainwork". So, not high at the time.

The other thing; if Sherlock is on morphine because he was nearly fatally shot, and had surgery-- because he's had issues with drugs in the past, do we still treat that perscribed use under a doctor's care as abuse and "high"?

 

November 8, 2016 12:46 am  #643


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

SusiGo wrote:

Here are some new thoughts about the use of drugs in HLV and TAB in connection with EMP theory. This is something nakahara might like. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
:

The Drugged Detective vs The Deducing Detective
If we take everything we see in HLV at face value and regard the first and third TAB plane scenes as real, this means Sherlock remains more or less stoned for two whole episodes. 

It starts in the drug den. He is shot the same evening and given morphine. He even takes his IV drip with him when leaving hospital and calls for morphine twice in 221b. Then we jump the missing months and have him boarding the plane drugged to the gills again, a state in which he remains until the end of TAB. Which means that the few hours during Christmas would be the only time in the whole of HLV and TAB in which Sherlock is sober.

Please think about that for a moment. Two whole episodes with a Sherlock Holmes who is drugged in some way or other. (Sure, TAB is meant to span only five minutes of narrative time but we still get 90 minutes of narration time). This might be new but is it really what the writers want us to believe?

If we, however, assume that the second half of HLV plus TAB is EMP, we get an injured Sherlock in his MP thinking about how John berated him for getting high again, for not asking his help. This would tie in with John finding him at the drug den which is still fresh in Sherlock’s mind because it only happened hours or days, not months ago. 

And this is very important for their relationship because John has seen him drugged twice before - in ASiB and ThoB - but both times Sherlock had been drugged against his will. HLV is the first time John really sees him as a junkie and this is what keeps preying on his mind. 

Want some proof? Look at this quote from TAB:

HOLMES: Since when have you had any kind of imagination?
WATSON: Perhaps since I convinced the reading public that an unprincipled drug addict is some kind of gentleman hero.

This happens before the first plane scene in which John allegedly learns that Sherlock has consumed an almost fatal drug cocktail. This is how Sherlock thinks John sees him even before he “wakes up” for the first time, i.e. before John has even learned about the OD and the drug list. It is a direct reference to their meeting in the drug den, not to the alleged OD on the plane. 

And think of this: We see John finding Sherlock in a drug den before we see Mycroft finding Sherlock in a drug den. So maybe the Mycroft flashback has been coloured by what happened at the beginning of HLV. Both moments in which Mycroft shows his feelings are either EMP and/or drug-induced - “Your loss would break my heart” and “I was there for you before. I’ll be there for you again. I’ll always be there for you.” Even if we discount EMP, in the first instance Mycroft is drugged, in the second instance Sherlock. 

Therefore I would like to ask: What is truer to the spirit of Sherlock Holmes - two whole episodes coloured by drug use or one instance of emotionally understandable, if not strictly excusable drug use, followed by one-and-a-half episodes of Sherlock trying to work on his feelings for John, his own past and deduce what is going on with Mary, Moriarty, and Mycroft?

 
I never thought that the original Sherlock Holmes was meant to be seen as a Junkie-- or drug fiend, as I often see Sherlock described as in commentary and recent fanfics--- so,I'm going with your second choice.

Plus, this is just logical. You cannot do what he does if you're high 24/7.

 

November 8, 2016 5:25 am  #644


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

SusiGo wrote:

Therefore I would like to ask: What is truer to the spirit of Sherlock Holmes - two whole episodes coloured by drug use or one instance of emotionally understandable, if not strictly excusable drug use, followed by one-and-a-half episodes of Sherlock trying to work on his feelings for John, his own past and deduce what is going on with Mary, Moriarty, and Mycroft?

To come back to your question, I personally think that the second option is a lot more likely.

Sherlock Holmes in canon is a frequent user, but surely not what we'd call a "junkie" today.

And we know that we are not watching a detective show but a show about a detective. If TAB is only about Sherlock figuring out so many things without anything real happening, that is perfectly justified with the focus on Sherlock the show has.

BTW, the problem I am having with the whole drugs-on-the-plane thing is that Sherlock appear to be little to none affected by the drugs at the end of the episode. It seems highly unrealistisch to me and, for me, is only another hint that TAB completely takes place inside Sherlock's mind.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

November 8, 2016 7:37 am  #645


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question, SusiGo-- in the hospital, Sherlock turned down his pca for morphine, because it "wasn't good for brainwork". So, not high at the time.

The other thing; if Sherlock is on morphine because he was nearly fatally shot, and had surgery-- because he's had issues with drugs in the past, do we still treat that perscribed use under a doctor's care as abuse and "high"?

I did never say that his drug use was always in the cateogory "abuse/high". I just wanted to point out that if we take HLV/TAB at face value, it would put Sherlock under the influence of drugs - medical or recreational - for two whole episodes, the Christmas scenes being the only exception. True, he turned down the drugs but still took the IV drip with him. Carrying such an unwieldy thing with him means to me that he was going to need the drugs. The drug den, the morphine, drugs OD on the tarmac and the plane. Which I find highly improbable since it would influence his whole way of thinking over two episodes. Entering his MP on the other hand is a conscious decision, the decision to work out things about himself and others. Therefore I think that the drug use is a strong hint at EMP. 

Last edited by SusiGo (November 8, 2016 7:38 am)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

November 8, 2016 7:42 am  #646


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

There's also the scene at Leinster Gardens/221B, where he has foregone morphine.  The pain itself may have affected his thinking, but he's not drugged at that point. 

 

November 8, 2016 7:49 am  #647


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

Although according to John he was "pretty much babbling" at the hospital. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

November 8, 2016 8:07 am  #648


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

SusiGo wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question, SusiGo-- in the hospital, Sherlock turned down his pca for morphine, because it "wasn't good for brainwork". So, not high at the time.

The other thing; if Sherlock is on morphine because he was nearly fatally shot, and had surgery-- because he's had issues with drugs in the past, do we still treat that perscribed use under a doctor's care as abuse and "high"?

I did never say that his drug use was always in the cateogory "abuse/high". I just wanted to point out that if we take HLV/TAB at face value, it would put Sherlock under the influence of drugs - medical or recreational - for two whole episodes, the Christmas scenes being the only exception. True, he turned down the drugs but still took the IV drip with him. Carrying such an unwieldy thing with him means to me that he was going to need the drugs. The drug den, the morphine, drugs OD on the tarmac and the plane. Which I find highly improbable since it would influence his whole way of thinking over two episodes. Entering his MP on the other hand is a conscious decision, the decision to work out things about himself and others. Therefore I think that the drug use is a strong hint at EMP. 

Oh, I agree-- for one thing, taking his IV drip with him? How????

 

November 8, 2016 8:08 am  #649


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

SusiGo wrote:

Although according to John he was "pretty much babbling" at the hospital. 

 

Some of the babbling could be pain, shock, and of course add heavy meds-- because of the shot...

 

November 8, 2016 8:09 am  #650


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

Schmiezi wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

Therefore I would like to ask: What is truer to the spirit of Sherlock Holmes - two whole episodes coloured by drug use or one instance of emotionally understandable, if not strictly excusable drug use, followed by one-and-a-half episodes of Sherlock trying to work on his feelings for John, his own past and deduce what is going on with Mary, Moriarty, and Mycroft?

To come back to your question, I personally think that the second option is a lot more likely.

Sherlock Holmes in canon is a frequent user, but surely not what we'd call a "junkie" today.

And we know that we are not watching a detective show but a show about a detective. If TAB is only about Sherlock figuring out so many things without anything real happening, that is perfectly justified with the focus on Sherlock the show has.

BTW, the problem I am having with the whole drugs-on-the-plane thing is that Sherlock appear to be little to none affected by the drugs at the end of the episode. It seems highly unrealistisch to me and, for me, is only another hint that TAB completely takes place inside Sherlock's mind.

Wholeheartedly agree. 

 

November 8, 2016 3:08 pm  #651


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

Schmiezi wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

Therefore I would like to ask: What is truer to the spirit of Sherlock Holmes - two whole episodes coloured by drug use or one instance of emotionally understandable, if not strictly excusable drug use, followed by one-and-a-half episodes of Sherlock trying to work on his feelings for John, his own past and deduce what is going on with Mary, Moriarty, and Mycroft?

To come back to your question, I personally think that the second option is a lot more likely.

Sherlock Holmes in canon is a frequent user, but surely not what we'd call a "junkie" today.

And we know that we are not watching a detective show but a show about a detective. If TAB is only about Sherlock figuring out so many things without anything real happening, that is perfectly justified with the focus on Sherlock the show has.

BTW, the problem I am having with the whole drugs-on-the-plane thing is that Sherlock appear to be little to none affected by the drugs at the end of the episode. It seems highly unrealistisch to me and, for me, is only another hint that TAB completely takes place inside Sherlock's mind.

I always leaned towards the theory that Sherlock´s drug addiction in TAB plays only in his head, not just because Sherlock snaps out of "overdose" in seconds and has no lasting effects of it, but also because of other evidence:

- John or Mary do not observe any marks of drug use of Sherlock in the plane and they both comment on it in this manner,
- Mycroft confesses he left Sherlock imprisoned in a solitary cell for a week (and I suspect he was under the strict supervision on Mycroft´s orders), so where and when would he obtain drugs? I doubt Mycroft´s employees would get him some, because Mycroft would deduce that about them in a jiff,
- no opportunity to take drugs - if Sherlock took them in prison or in a car or on the tarmac, Mycroft (who has better deduction and observation skills) would see it and confiscate them right away,
- five or six minutes which Sherlock spent on board of the plane would not be enough for the drug to make the desired effect and for the drug to loose that effect that quickly,
- on the other hand, Sherlock can enter his MP at will at any time,
- it is possible to reflect on your drug use or on your characteristic symbolised by drugs without actually taking some.

So I´m definitely leaning towards the second option where TAB is concerned.

HLV is so twisted and has such double-meaning that I quite suspect some scenes to be MP, but I am not very sure if they really are....

Last edited by nakahara (November 8, 2016 9:40 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 8, 2016 5:48 pm  #652


Re: Sherlock's Addiction

nakahara wrote:

Schmiezi wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

Therefore I would like to ask: What is truer to the spirit of Sherlock Holmes - two whole episodes coloured by drug use or one instance of emotionally understandable, if not strictly excusable drug use, followed by one-and-a-half episodes of Sherlock trying to work on his feelings for John, his own past and deduce what is going on with Mary, Moriarty, and Mycroft?

To come back to your question, I personally think that the second option is a lot more likely.

Sherlock Holmes in canon is a frequent user, but surely not what we'd call a "junkie" today.

And we know that we are not watching a detective show but a show about a detective. If TAB is only about Sherlock figuring out so many things without anything real happening, that is perfectly justified with the focus on Sherlock the show has.

BTW, the problem I am having with the whole drugs-on-the-plane thing is that Sherlock appear to be little to none affected by the drugs at the end of the episode. It seems highly unrealistisch to me and, for me, is only another hint that TAB completely takes place inside Sherlock's mind.

I always leaned towards the theory that Sherlock´s drug addiction in TAB plays only in his head, not just because Sherlock snaps out of "overdose" in seconds and has no lasting effects of it, but also because of other evidence:

- no John or Mary observe any marks of drug use of Sherlock in tha plane and they both comment on it in this manner,
- Mycroft confesses he left Sherlock imprisoned in a solitary cell for a week (and I suspect he was under the strict supervision on Mycroft´s orders), so where and when would he obtain drugs? I doubt Mycroft´s employees would get him some, because Mycroft would deduce that about them in a jiff,
- no opportunity to take drugs - if Sherlock took them in prison or in a car or on the tarmac, Mycroft (who has better deduction and observation skills) would see it and confiscate them right away,
- five or six minutes which Sherlock spent on board of the plane would not be enough for the drug take the desired effect and for the drug to loose that effect that quickly,
- on the other hand, Sherlock can enter his MP at will at any time,
- it is possible to reflect on your drug use or on your characteristic symbolised by drugs without actually taking some.

So I´m definitely leaning towards the second option where TAB is concerned.

HLV is so twisted and has such double-meaning that I quite suspect some scenes to be MP, but I am not very sure if they really are....

Well, it does raise a lot of questions indeed.


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"All lives end... all hearts are broken... Caring is not an advantage... Sherlock."
 

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