BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



November 5, 2015 9:15 am  #21


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question: if Sherlock getting shot was his own fault, and up to that point, he'd bungled everything anyway-- what is his purpose in the show? Mary is, apparently-- smarter than he is, more competent, has more skills, and knows how to handle these situations-- so, what is Sherlock's purpose? Also, if Mary is as competent as shown, couldn't she have figured out another thing to do than lethally shooting Sherlock?

Also, if she was so angered by Sherlock addressing her as Mrs. Watson, why struggle so hard to keep her husband from knowing that actually, she wasn't ?

I second that and I might add: if Mycroft must keep Sherlock out of trouble by holding him back from cases... than what exactly is Sherlock´s purpose in the story? Is he a child that cannot be trusted of doing any activity without "parental" supervision? How could he be known as a great detective then if he can´t take a step without Mycroft changing his nappies?

I know the authors wanted to make Mycroft more dynamic than in the original, but honestly, if this is the conclusion the fans reach after seeing their scenes together, then I´d rather see Mycroft die in S4, so that Sherlock can be finally free of his overbearing influence and so that he can solve cases without his interference.... No plant can mature if it must grow in the shadow of a gigantic tree.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 5, 2015 9:29 am  #22


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Liberty wrote:

JP wrote:

Liberty, Sherlock wanted to steal the letters. CAM shouldn't be there, as he had a scheduled something for that evening - according to Janine (!)

I think that was clearly a trap by Magnussen.  He showed Sherlock (fake) letters and fed him false information about being out of the office.

I have wondered if he also lured Mary there the same night (she had befriended Janine too) to set up a confrontation, but I suspect not.  It would be too dangerous and would mean showing one of his cards.   However, in the end, Sherlock finding out about Mary doesn't disadvantage Magnussen and actually gives him more power in the end.   Sherlock taking on Mary's case plays into Magnussen's hands.

I think this was a set up, but the real target was Sherlock, not Magnussen. Mary wanted to kill Sherlock and used Magnussen and Janine to lure him there.

She knew that Sherlock investigates Magnussen´s case from John. She knew Magnussen´s schedule from Janine. That´s why she physically restrained Magnussen and led him into the next room, to wait for Sherlock there. That´s why she didn´t kill Magnussen on the spot, that´s why she left Janine and the guard alive (to let John tend to them and not fillow Sherlock immediately) and that´s why she used a heavy dose of her favourite Claire de la Lune even during her assassin mission. She wanted to raise feeling in Sherlock that Lady Smalwood, who also used the perfume, is in the office. 

As to her connection with Magnussen - we only presume that she was blackmailed by him. There´s no indication in any episode that it´s so. They could have been cronies all the time. Even John´s "bonfire" could be set-up by both of them. "Pressure chain on Mycroft" could be Magnussen´s false invention. Even in Appledore, his main goal seems to be to break Sherlock and to remove him from the scene for meny years. Don´t even let me start on Janine who fed Sherlock false information about Magnussen´s absence and who is both Mary´s friend and Magnussen´s employee....


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 5, 2015 11:26 am  #23


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question: if Sherlock getting shot was his own fault, and up to that point, he'd bungled everything anyway-- what is his purpose in the show? Mary is, apparently-- smarter than he is, more competent, has more skills, and knows how to handle these situations-- so, what is Sherlock's purpose? Also, if Mary is as competent as shown, couldn't she have figured out another thing to do than lethally shooting Sherlock?

Also, if she was so angered by Sherlock addressing her as Mrs. Watson, why struggle so hard to keep her husband from knowing that actually, she wasn't ?

We must be watching two different shows, because I don't recognize anything you wrote here in the show I watch.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

November 5, 2015 11:40 am  #24


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Vhanja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question: if Sherlock getting shot was his own fault, and up to that point, he'd bungled everything anyway-- what is his purpose in the show? Mary is, apparently-- smarter than he is, more competent, has more skills, and knows how to handle these situations-- so, what is Sherlock's purpose? Also, if Mary is as competent as shown, couldn't she have figured out another thing to do than lethally shooting Sherlock?

Also, if she was so angered by Sherlock addressing her as Mrs. Watson, why struggle so hard to keep her husband from knowing that actually, she wasn't ?

We must be watching two different shows, because I don't recognize anything you wrote here in the show I watch.

Raven is responding to Liberty and Whisky who suggested those ideas in their posts. So maybe it´s them who watches different show?
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 5, 2015 12:01 pm  #25


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

nakahara wrote:

Raven is responding to Liberty and Whisky who suggested those ideas in their posts. So maybe it´s them who watches different show?
 

Ok, well, I didn't get the same impression from their posts as Raven did.

Last edited by Vhanja (November 5, 2015 12:02 pm)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

November 5, 2015 7:10 pm  #26


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

I don't think Mary was planning to shoot Sherlock - it doesn't quite make sense.   We do know Magnussen has something on her, because of the telegram (who else is CAM supposed to be?).   And I don't think Mary would plan to kill Sherlock when John was present.  Why would she do that, if she didn't want John to know?  There was no guarantee that Sherlock would enter the room before John.  She's an assassin - she could have killed Sherlock when he was alone. 

Using the perfume to fool Sherlock into thinking it's Lady Smallwood doesn't make sense either - she doesn't try to fool him.   In fact, using the perfume was taking the risk that Sherlock (or John) would guess it was her - which seems to indicate that she didn't know they would be there.   And the perfume is (presumably) Mary's perfume long before Lady Smallwood is involved. 

 

November 5, 2015 7:19 pm  #27


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Got another question: The title of the thread is "Was Mary Definitely going to shoot Sherlock"--, and, I'm interpreting that to mean, "When Mary was surprised by Sherlock in Magnussen's office, would she have shot him, no matter what-- or, if she'd had an alternative, would she have taken it?"

Or, do we mean, was Mary going to shoot Sherlock all along, given the opportunity

Can we clarify the question? 

 

November 5, 2015 7:23 pm  #28


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Vhanja wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Raven is responding to Liberty and Whisky who suggested those ideas in their posts. So maybe it´s them who watches different show?
 

Ok, well, I didn't get the same impression from their posts as Raven did.

I'm wondering if we're talking about the same posts. Because there was definitely "Being called Mrs. Watson" made Mary angry, and "Sherlock had bungled everything up to that point" couple of posts. That's was I responded to, not trying to pick a fight. 

 

November 5, 2015 7:27 pm  #29


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I have a question: if Sherlock getting shot was his own fault, and up to that point, he'd bungled everything anyway-- what is his purpose in the show? Mary is, apparently-- smarter than he is, more competent, has more skills, and knows how to handle these situations-- so, what is Sherlock's purpose? Also, if Mary is as competent as shown, couldn't she have figured out another thing to do than lethally shooting Sherlock?

Also, if she was so angered by Sherlock addressing her as Mrs. Watson, why struggle so hard to keep her husband from knowing that actually, she wasn't ?

I second that and I might add: if Mycroft must keep Sherlock out of trouble by holding him back from cases... than what exactly is Sherlock´s purpose in the story? Is he a child that cannot be trusted of doing any activity without "parental" supervision? How could he be known as a great detective then if he can´t take a step without Mycroft changing his nappies?

I know the authors wanted to make Mycroft more dynamic than in the original, but honestly, if this is the conclusion the fans reach after seeing their scenes together, then I´d rather see Mycroft die in S4, so that Sherlock can be finally free of his overbearing influence and so that he can solve cases without his interference.... No plant can mature if it must grow in the shadow of a gigantic tree.
 

Hear, hear. I find it difficult to think of Sherlock-- as suddenly incompetent and "bungling" and in Mary's way-- and as a disobedient child-- when the premise of the show is the NSY and everybody else calls on him to solve crimes that no-one else can. And we forget that he spent two years , probably alone, taking out Moriarty's Network. Yet, somehow  he's incompetent, next to Mary's savvy skills. 

 

November 5, 2015 7:37 pm  #30


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Oh, I think that generally he's incredibly clever and competent.  It's just that in this case, the Smallwood case, he wasn't.   I suppose we assume that if Mary hadn't been there, he'd have "solved" the Smallwood case, but would he?  What would he have done?  He'd completely walked into Magnussen's trap.  Perhaps it was deliberate, but he didn't seem to have had a proper plan.  If Mary hadn't have been there, he'd have had to deal with Magnussen who was one step ahead until the end.   There weren't any letters.   And even if Magnussen had told Sherlock at that point that it was all in his head, would Sherlock have killed him?  I don't think so - I think it needed the impetus of John and Mary for Sherlock to do that. 

And he doesn't deduce that Magnussen has no vaults: Magnussen actually shows him. 

Of course, Mary also cocks up on her own "case", because she didn't expect Sherlock to walk in. 

 

November 5, 2015 7:54 pm  #31


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Got another question: The title of the thread is "Was Mary Definitely going to shoot Sherlock"--, and, I'm interpreting that to mean, "When Mary was surprised by Sherlock in Magnussen's office, would she have shot him, no matter what-- or, if she'd had an alternative, would she have taken it?"

Or, do we mean, was Mary going to shoot Sherlock all along, given the opportunity

Can we clarify the question? 

The first one.  In that one moment, when she warns Sherlock not to take another step - if he had indeed obeyed, would she have shot him anyway?  That was the original question.

     Thread Starter
 

November 5, 2015 8:30 pm  #32


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Magingus wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Got another question: The title of the thread is "Was Mary Definitely going to shoot Sherlock"--, and, I'm interpreting that to mean, "When Mary was surprised by Sherlock in Magnussen's office, would she have shot him, no matter what-- or, if she'd had an alternative, would she have taken it?"

Or, do we mean, was Mary going to shoot Sherlock all along, given the opportunity

Can we clarify the question? 

The first one.  In that one moment, when she warns Sherlock not to take another step - if he had indeed obeyed, would she have shot him anyway?  That was the original question.

Then, in that context, I think *yes* , she would have shot Sherlock anyway-- because she really had boxed herself into a corner at that point. 

 

November 5, 2015 10:29 pm  #33


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Liberty wrote:

I don't think Mary was planning to shoot Sherlock - it doesn't quite make sense.   We do know Magnussen has something on her, because of the telegram (who else is CAM supposed to be?).  

But the telegram Mary got in TSOT was not literaly a blackmail attempt. It was actually a greeting. We only interpret it as blackmail based on our knowledge that Magnussen is a blackmailer. Now, how do we know that it was not merely a summons from Magnussen: "Mary, I know you are in the UK and I need your assassin skills."?

Liberty wrote:

And I don't think Mary would plan to kill Sherlock when John was present.  Why would she do that, if she didn't want John to know?  There was no guarantee that Sherlock would enter the room before John.  She's an assassin - she could have killed Sherlock when he was alone. 

John was not present in the room when Mary shot Sherlock - and I believe she set it up precisely so it would be this way. I never claimed she wanted to do it in front of John.

Sherlock is very unpredictable in his moves, he is out of Baker Street for long periods of time and is always surrounded by busybodies like Mrs. Hudson, Anderson, Molly, Lestrade and the like. It would be wiser for Mary to lure him into an environment under her control and to kill him there than to wait till he would be alone (he almost never is!).

Liberty wrote:

Using the perfume to fool Sherlock into thinking it's Lady Smallwood doesn't make sense either - she doesn't try to fool him.   In fact, using the perfume was taking the risk that Sherlock (or John) would guess it was her - which seems to indicate that she didn't know they would be there.   And the perfume is (presumably) Mary's perfume long before Lady Smallwood is involved. 

I, on the other hand, believe that it´s foolish for an assassin to use perfume easily identifiable in connection with her, while she´s on "the mission". Why would she use it in such situation - when her every effort is not to be seen rather that to be stylish? So it had to have another purpose. Luring Sherlock to her could theoretically be such purpose. I noticed even you think Sherlock was walking into a trap there - why not to both Magnussen´s and Mary´s trap?


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

November 6, 2015 3:15 am  #34


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I don't think Mary was planning to shoot Sherlock - it doesn't quite make sense. We do know Magnussen has something on her, because of the telegram (who else is CAM supposed to be?).

But the telegram Mary got in TSOT was not literaly a blackmail attempt. It was actually a greeting. We only interpret it as blackmail based on our knowledge that Magnussen is a blackmailer. Now, how do we know that it was not merely a summons from Magnussen: "Mary, I know you are in the UK and I need your assassin skills."?

While CAM's telegram at the wedding might not have been a blackmail attempt in itself, I feel it was intended to cause her duress. I saw it as more of a "reminder" to Mary, a taunt that he had something on her and was holding it over her head.

If the telegram were benign in nature, I don't think we would have gotten Mary's clearly upset reaction.

At least, that's how I interpret that scene.


 

     Thread Starter
 

November 6, 2015 7:47 am  #35


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

We don't know exactly what the message meant to Mary, but she doesn't look happy about it at all.  Even if it was just a request for her assassin skills it still seems like a threat: it's delivered at her wedding, and Mary has changed her identity.    It seems that Magnussen is letting her know that he knows who she is, and that's something Mary is desparate to hide. 

If Mary really was setting this up, she'd have to go right back to ages before, start wearing Lady Smallwood's perfume, direct Magnussen to threaten Lady Smallwood's husband, etc.   It's too big a setup JUST to get Sherlock in a place where she can get a clear hit at him.   She's an assassin, after all.  She can presumably kill people who are very well protected and get away unseen - Sherlock wouldn't have been so much of a challenge.   And John WAS there, about to walk into the room.  There's no way she could know that they wouldn't walk in at the same time.   Sherlock could have been looking for clues while John checked the casualties.

I think Mary's reason for using the perfume is mainly plot reasons (it's a classic detective clue), but if she didn't expect John and Sherlock to be there, then there was no reason not to. 

I will be very dissapointed if they decide to do that.  There are already some issues I have the episode, and going down this route would make it just not hang together at all, I think.  It would make complete nonsense of Sherlock's deduction (the idea was that he missed the clues about Mary, but after she shoots him, he's able to see more clearly)

 

 

July 25, 2016 11:49 pm  #36


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

I have read a lot of theories and speculations that Mary did mean to kill Sherlock and Sherlock was just very lucky to have survived.
But it can't be like this for a very simple reason: If Mary really wanted to kill him with skills like hers, she would have shot him in the heart or the head to make sure hes got no chance to survive, don't you think?


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

July 26, 2016 6:28 am  #37


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Yes, I think that's what Sherlock deduces, particularly that she would have shot him the head (that's what he sees in his mind, and that's what he does himself when he wants to be sure of killing somebody).  Then he puts together the other clues, Magnussen being alive, the ambulance coming early, etc., and decides that she didn't mean to kill him (despite the fact that she virtually did!).

I think he also knew that he wasn't her target, as it would have been easy to pick him off at any time other than his appearance at Magnussen's (where she genuinely didn't seem to be expecting him).  Why get through all Magnussen's high security, just to kill somebody who has practically no protection themselves? 

And there's also the fact that she could have bumped him off in hospital, when he was very unwell and death would not have been a big surprise. 

 

July 26, 2016 7:12 am  #38


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Oh yes, these are good points, too!


- - -

Breathing is boring!

English isn't my first language, feel free to correct me via PM!
 

July 26, 2016 7:16 am  #39


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Rache wrote:

But it can't be like this for a very simple reason: If Mary really wanted to kill him with skills like hers, she would have shot him in the heart or the head to make sure hes got no chance to survive, don't you think?

She killed him anyway. He only survived miraculously because of his love for John Watson.
Also, killing Sherlock definitely would mean the end of the show story-wise, so Mary really COULDN´T shoot him in the head or heart, even if it was her intent to kill Sherlock. She is not a real physical person but a protagonist in the fictional story which need to go on, so her "decisions" are adjusted to that. Mofftiss simply couldn´t write it any other way if they wanted their show to continue. Therefore, this point is moot, in my opinion.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

July 26, 2016 7:24 am  #40


Re: Was Mary Definitely Going To Shoot Sherlock?

Rache wrote:

I have read a lot of theories and speculations that Mary did mean to kill Sherlock and Sherlock was just very lucky to have survived.
But it can't be like this for a very simple reason: If Mary really wanted to kill him with skills like hers, she would have shot him in the heart or the head to make sure hes got no chance to survive, don't you think?

Well, they actually couldn't do that, could they? Otherwise, it would have been the end of the show. Period. So--plot device, and she actually did mean to kill him. 

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum