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September 4, 2015 10:39 am  #1


Refugees

I am sure you all saw that picture of the small syrian refugee boy who died in the mediterranean sea. I cannot say how sad it made me feel.
I recently spoke to a refugee from Syria. When we spoke about politics and Europe all he said was: Why do you only act when the catastrophe has already happened? Why do you always wait until sth really bad happens?
I really couldn't answer this. I don't understand myself. But I also don't know what to do - are politics really that complex or are we overthinking everything instead of just helping?
You are all from different countries, but I think we are all affected...
How do you feel? What do you do? How does your country act? What fears and hopes do you have?
I wish I knew what to do... I wish I had answers and the power for change.
I don't want to see one more person dying during flight :-(

Last edited by Whisky (September 4, 2015 10:40 am)


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

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September 4, 2015 1:28 pm  #2


Re: Refugees

The loss of life of that poor child is indeed tragic and sad. However, the way in which the photograph of his dead body was misused for propaganda is truly sickening. It is similar as if another person photographed a child dying of leukemia in hospital with a sign: "I can´t be cured properly because my government gives money to refugees." Hyenistic, both cases. Interesting, that the children currently dying in Yemen (for example) are never ever mentioned in the same media and photographs of them are sparse.

As I understand, in this particular case, the boy died in the sea during his flight from the safe country - Turkey. I was apalled to hear that his father, who brought his family into the dinghy that overturned in the sea, survived because he had the vest - but didn´t bother to buy the same vests for his children nor his wife. But I digress - who am I to judge the people whose life was turned into the hell on earth by war? I was not there, I didn´t see into their heads, I believe they had their own reason why they did that.

The only normal solution for this wave of refugees would be to intervene in their own countries and to help building stabile regimes there, so that they can stay at home in safety. In the case of Syria, that would mean helping president Assad, the only normal and at least partly modern and secular force in the region and stop secretly supporting ISIL. But we know that would not happen, no matter what, do we? Somebody already invested billions of dollars into "syrian opposition" and those people won´t stop, no matter drowned boys, beheaded archeologists, destroyed historical monuments and burned up pilots...

I don´t think any of us, normal people, could help much. It is already too late for that - people should have refused the irresponsible interventions into Middle East when they were happening, not having second thoughts now, when they face the consequences of that. They would be forced to accept plenty of refugees one way or the other, I´m afraid. Which would mean that at least some of the unhappy people and some segments of beautiful, multi-faceted syrian culture will be saved. But this will bring new sets of problems, of course. The current islamic philosophies, especially those of salafists and wahhabists, preach incompatibility with another cultures in their "al-walla wa-l-bara" doctrine, so I doubt they will blend with Europeans just like that...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Wala'_Wal_Bara'

http://quranicverse99.tripod.com/islamicways/id15.html

http://islamicthinkers.com/welcome/?p=637

http://acdemocracy.org/islam-and-the-other-the-al-wala-wal-bara-doctrine/
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 4, 2015 1:45 pm  #3


Re: Refugees

Yes, nakahara. Media coverage is really big at the moment. I think it's sad that this picture  has to fill the role of a wake-up call, but if for example I hear Cameron (UK) speak now, I think some people need it drastic, because nothing else moves them. Esp. Politics... they seem to act quicker if media and public opinion press matters. What I meant is, why not act before we have so many awful pictures to chose from?

I agree that  taking in refugees is not the long term solution, although I don't worry about it. Yet I cannot see right now how situation in the countries itself can be improved. As you say, so many  reasons for the current situatuion lie in the past. But right now, there is only moving forward.

The problem I usually have is that I find the situation to be so complex that I feel I cannot even begin to think of solutions. Which would be okay if others did it. But if I listen to politicians, they seem just as helpless. That makes me feel uneasy and sad and I worry how this will continue.

If I got the time I will have a look at the links.

Last edited by Whisky (September 4, 2015 1:46 pm)


_____________________________________________________________

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September 4, 2015 1:50 pm  #4


Re: Refugees

There is no easy answer for this, I don't think, what with all the other things going on and how international stuff can become muddled by other problems.
While I do think that what is happening is bad, with sad things happening, I find myself feeling disconnected from it and blank.  I think it might be because this isn't really anything new.  Not completely.  There are always things like this happening, whether it's on a small or large scale.  While I do hope that this gets fixed and things do get better, at this point it doesn't feel like it's really news to me. Children die everywhere.  There are people who live in dangerous places, and sometimes they get out, sometimes they die traying, and sometimes they're stuck.  Maybe I'm used to being powerless in these decisions.  In Canada we have an election coming up, and while the party leaders are talking about this, I have trouble seeing how this could really factor in, and even then it just makes it even harder for me to choose who to vote for.  I'm not totally happy with any of them.  And like I said, there are other things to factor in (TPP, Aboriginals/First Nations, economy, social spending, etc.), so at this point I'm not sure it's a deciding thing.
I realize that my coutry's election is probably irrelevant to this topic in many ways, but because we have one coming it seems like every possible issue or problem gets sucked into the campaign vortex, so I can't keep things separated from that all the time.
I hope that we can have a solution and help these refugees before the election in October, because that would be a long time for this to go on, but at the same time, whoever we elect will hopefully help with it if it is still going on.
And my last point is this; I think another reason I'm tired of this story is that I'm tired of just seeing the same stuff on a loop for days.  I want to hear on the news about action being taken, not just more reminders of the continued suffering.  And in that case I don't know who to be disappointed in, the news people doing their job or the people who are actually able to do things about it but have not yet done very much.  I know there are people who have been donataing money to aid organizations like Save the Children, but even though I respect those groups I have developed the view that it will never be enough.


http://orig11.deviantart.net/078e/f/2015/207/f/e/consulting_detective_2_by_sakuranakamura-d92vt40.pnghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/8f4e/f/2015/198/4/2/blogger_by_sakuranakamura-d91o4zv.png
Clueing for looks.
 

September 4, 2015 4:53 pm  #5


Re: Refugees

They were Kurdish people who would have likely suffered further violence in Turkey.
And they had family in Canada who were willing and able to support them.
In Europe they had the chance for a refugee status in order to apply for visa for Canada.

Vests were sold out. If it's true the father had a vest, I'm thinking of my times on a plane.
They keep telling that the adult has to take the life-saving oxygen mask first to ensure the life of the child. I find this principle (parent needs to stay alive for a child's sake) hard but reasonable

I agree with you, Whisky.

I don't want to see one more person dying during flight :-(

We need way more legal options for people who look for safety. They will come anyway.

And with the demographic development, Germany at least should be glad to have future workers, caregivers, diplomats, taxpayers.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

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September 4, 2015 7:08 pm  #6


Re: Refugees

Harriet wrote:

They were Kurdish people who would have likely suffered further violence in Turkey.
And they had family in Canada who were willing and able to support them.
In Europe they had the chance for a refugee status in order to apply for visa for Canada.

Vests were sold out. If it's true the father had a vest, I'm thinking of my times on a plane.
They keep telling that the adult has to take the life-saving oxygen mask first to ensure the life of the child. I find this principle (parent needs to stay alive for a child's sake) hard but reasonable.

Kurdish people, huh? Poor sods. Yes, it´s very probable that a life in Turkey would not be a bed of roses for them.

And I agree - the logic behind the father having the vest lay probably in belief that if the boat would be overturned, he would be able to hold children afloat. But this proved to be impossible when the tragedy actually happened.

Harriet wrote:

We need way more legal options for people who look for safety. They will come anyway. And with the demographic development, Germany at least should be glad to have future workers, caregivers, diplomats, taxpayers.

Personally, I have a bad feeling about this. Thousands of refugees come to Europe daily for months now, but up till now, there was no feasible plan from European Union concerning their fate and the plan for the improvement of their home countries, only some half-assed temporary solutions from individual countries. I am not even sure if EU had at least some official statement to this - they leave it all to individual countries and only criticise them from the safety of their offices. And so I am afraid that such ineptitude and obvious helplessness from the well-paid elites will lead to the gradual collapse of belief in democratic institutions and to radicalism. Which will be a catastrophe, if that really happens. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 4, 2015 10:06 pm  #7


Re: Refugees

nakahara wrote:

And so I am afraid that such ineptitude and obvious helplessness from the well-paid elites will lead to the gradual collapse of belief in democratic institutions and to radicalism. Which will be a catastrophe, if that really happens. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

 

 
I think we need to think global. What with climate change, ressources, ... I think it won't work anymore that each country follows only its own agenda. We are lucky to live in stable conditions, and we can act to prevent and work against radicalism. But imo, it's not a solution to be frightened, to close eyes and borders, to sit things out... I'm very optimistic there is a majority for peace and tolerance in the world. It's not only governments task to fight radicalism, it's a task for everybody. I think we need courage, not fear and doubt...

For my country,I wish that they would stop fueling the conflicts in the world with distributing weapons. To know german weapons might be in hands of terrorists makes me sick. They talk peace, but still support weapon sales... and that's just one example... we are part of conflicts, we cannot opt out of help and solutions... but we need to work on the prevention of conflicts, to interact more careful and earlier, without doubtful interests in mind. Not only be welcoming when people already suffered...


_____________________________________________________________

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September 11, 2015 5:42 pm  #8


Re: Refugees

Benedict has adressed this issue in a short speech after last night's Hamlet performance. He also signed an open letter that was published in The Guardian today. And last but not least he recorded a message for a video to go with the release of a charity single called Help Is Coming by Crowded House, all proceeeds go to Save The Children.





The following article is from The Telegraph:

Benedict Cumberbatch records charity message for Syrian refugees
Actor Benedict Cumberbatch appears in video for Save the Children single Help Is Coming
By Anita Singh, Arts and Entertainment Editor, video source Save the Children12:01AM BST 11 Sep 2015
Benedict Cumberbatch has recorded the introduction to a charity single for the refugee crisis - a re-issue of the Crowded House song Help Is Coming.http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03435/Benedict_Cumberbat_3435751b.jpg
Benedict Cumberbatch supports Save The Children's Refugee Crisis Appeal (Save the Children)All proceeds from the song will go to Save the Children and it is available now to download on iTunes, with a 7” vinyl single available from September 28.In the video introduction, recorded in the Barbican dressing room before he took the stage as Hamlet, Cumberbatch said: “As people watching this tragedy unfold from the safety of our homes, with our safe children, we want to say that we see you, we hear you and help is coming.”He quoted from Home, the work of Somali poet Warsan Shire, which includes the lines: “No-one leaves home unless home is the mouth of a shark… No-one puts their child in a boat unless the water is safer than the land.”The single is the brainchild of writers Caitlin Moran and Peter Paphides. They were moved to action by the image of three-year-old Syrian refugee Aylan Kurdi, whose body was washed up on a Turkish beach. The video was directed by Mat Whitecross and includes interviews with refugee children.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03435/Benedict_Cumberbat_3435756b.jpg
Help Is Coming, released in 1999, was written about immigrants arriving on Ellis Island (Save the Children)Neil Finn of Crowded House said: “I am continually amazed and grateful for the mysterious pathways that songs can travel. You never know where they are going to turn up and when they will reveal their true nature.“First recorded in 1995, quietly released in 1999, Help Is Coming has had a long journey to find a good home. It was always a song about refugees, even if at the time I was thinking about the immigrants setting off on ships from Europe to America, looking for a better life.“There is such a huge scale and urgency to the current refugee crises that barely a day goes by without some crushing image or news account to confront us. We can’t be silent any more.“Like the diverse immigrants that made America great, these are good people that just want to find somewhere safe to create a better life for their families.”Save the Children said money raised would be used to provide help along the route that refugees take, from Syria through to Greece, Italy and the UK.Justin Forsyth, CEO of Save the Children said: “Europe is facing its worst refugee crisis since the Second World War and it is unacceptable that children are dying on our doorstep.”http://helpiscoming.org


O, learn to read what silent love hath writ:
To hear with eyes belongs to love’s fine wit.
(Shakespeare, Sonnet 23) 
 

September 11, 2015 6:30 pm  #9


Re: Refugees

Thanks for posting this, diva! We all should see what is within our possibilities to help with this situation - be it on local level with volunteer work with asylum seekers, be it with donations or publicity. There are many ways how to help.
I'm glad that Benedict takes part in this. Even though I find it a bit  too emotionalised, but if it helps ... and it's of course a deeply troubling situation these people are in.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 12, 2015 1:24 pm  #10


Re: Refugees

Meanwhile, Benedict joins some other celebrities in signing an open letter appealing on British public in regards of this refugee crisis (as I understand, Britain and Denmark are guaranteed an exception that enables them not to take any refugees in they decide so - this letter was probably written as a reflection to that) :

http://40.media.tumblr.com/740fbbb30d95f053cec8b41cca515ce9/tumblr_nuj3z4XadK1sdhowso1_1280.jpg


http://benophiedaily.tumblr.com/post/128865073867/open-letter-addressing-the-refugee-crisis
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 12, 2015 1:39 pm  #11


Re: Refugees

On the other hand - since he is mentioned in an open letter too - let´s return to Abdullah Kurdi whose personal plight started this discussion.

Zainab Abbas, and Iraqi refugee and a woman who lost two children in the same boat that cost little Aylan Kurdi his life, openly accused his father Abdullah Kurdi of being a part of a smuggler ring. Her claim was backed up by other passengers of the same boat. I cease to see what would be her motivation to lie:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/604535/Aylan-Kurdi-father-people-smuggler-refugee-crisis

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3230422/Abdullah-Kurdi-people-smuggler-migrant.html#comments

Now, in this stage it´s one claim against another, so it´s not really possible to know the whole truth about the situation.

Still, nothing can hurt an effort of the above mentioned activists and volunteers who want to help the refugees more than the revelation that they have possibly build their campaign on a base of a big propagandist media spin-off. Some of them should appeal to the media, to print stories with at least some objectivity in them and to cease making emotional accusatory statements until the situation is properly investigated, so that the people whose goodwill make them act on those emotional pleas don´t look like idiots in turn.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 12, 2015 3:50 pm  #12


Re: Refugees

I didn't read these links. The very word dailymail is too repulsive - not a solid or worthy source for a reasonable and reliable information.

Last edited by Harriet (September 12, 2015 4:03 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 12, 2015 5:31 pm  #13


Re: Refugees

Harriet wrote:

I didn't read these links. The very word dailymail is too repulsive - not a solid or worthy source for a reasonable and reliable information.

The first news channel which came with the story was an Australian branch of Sky News:

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2015/09/11/claims-alan-kurdi-s-father-a-people-smuggler.html

Unreliable sorce too?
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 12, 2015 5:33 pm  #14


Re: Refugees

Wow! Benedict´s plea made yesterday already raised a nice sum!

http://40.media.tumblr.com/640de6f1687e481db6924b88cbf607b6/tumblr_nuioe88lrm1r3qc95o1_500.png


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 12, 2015 5:41 pm  #15


Re: Refugees

I don't know that channel, but I wouldn't use the Daily Mail to wrap my food with.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 12, 2015 6:28 pm  #16


Re: Refugees

Harriet wrote:

I don't know that channel, but I wouldn't use the Daily Mail to wrap my food with.

Daily Mail is a trash but at least a sincere trash. When you open it, the very design is telling you that you are reading the tabloid and that a content of almost every article will be intentionally sensationalised. 

In this case, they wrote about Aylans death and posted his photos the same way other media did - they weren´t much worse than other mainsteram news. And by reporting also the other facts that emerged about the case later, they were at least sincere in admitting that they could be wrong in their previous reports about the case. They also left their forum open for discussion, so that the people could present their opinions about that thing and an article itself.

On the other hand, let us look how the "proper, honest, established" media works. This is the Guardian´s article about the UK cultural figures calling for greater refugee intake:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/11/too-little-too-late-uk-cultural-figures-call-for-greater-refugee-intake

Absolutely no objectivity.
Throwing big words around: "the doctrinaire government", "grossly unjust", "callous, inhumane language the government used" etc. 
Sweeping generalisations: "Britain is identifying itself with the fascists..." really? (Calling the people who disagree with you "fascists" to discredit their opinions is a very lowly logical fallacy, a subcase of argumentum ad hominem which should never appear in respectable media, IMHO.)
Mixing apples with oranges: the article itself is about refugees, but the quote of an "outraged celebrity" allegedly supporting the case was clearly taken out of context, because it speaks about "targeted assasination" (you can find it right about Benedict´s photograph).
More apples and oranges and finding the connection when none exists: "For Kapoor, it has been impossible not to draw a parallel between the recent vandalism of his sculpture in Versailles with antisemitic grafitti and the effort to prevent refugees reaching Europe". LOL, and the graffiti vandalism I notice in the town where I live must be the proof of second coming of Chist, certainly...
No discussion allowed, of course.

Not sure if it´s only Daily Mail which is not worth wrapping your food it. The rest of the media does not appear to be any better in comparison.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

September 18, 2015 12:22 pm  #17


Re: Refugees

On the radio here in Germany, I hear good and balanced stories and explanations and campaign informations. I also read good articles in newspapers. But still, I like to read into several big newspapers to get a better overview. And I now and then take a glance at the "Bild" (german tabloid) to know what information the broad mass takes in (because let's face it, many people do read the tabloids). The media hasn't got all the information, they've got bits and pieces from different sources which they dish out. I think while we cannot change all media coverage for the better right now, we can make sure we don't take our information only from one source.
What I would find important is to distinguish the different stories of refugees. They have many different reasons to come. Of course most come because of war in Syria, but that's not all of them. There might be more acceptance if people realised that each person has his or her very own story, and that we talk about people not "the refugee problem".
I also think it doesn't help to argue about credibility. The big picture is quite clear nevertheless, I suppose.

Last edited by Whisky (September 18, 2015 12:26 pm)


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

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     Thread Starter
 

September 18, 2015 11:05 pm  #18


Re: Refugees

Increasingly annoyed by the bandying around or the word 'migrants' here in the UK rather than 'refugees'. Whist a small proportion may be 'economic migrants' the overwhelming majority, I am sure, as actually refugees and will be awarded asylum as such. I find the use of the word 'migrants' to be politically loaded and misleading. 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

September 18, 2015 11:30 pm  #19


Re: Refugees

Even in Canadian media the word "migrants" has been used a few times, even though usually the word "refugees" is used.  You're not the only one who finds calling them migrants as a loaded term.
From what I've seen in the news, Canada has let some refugees in, but this is still an ongoing problem so I don't think much has been done yet.
Sometimes it feels like our leaders are too busy with election debates, campaigning and attack ads right now.


http://orig11.deviantart.net/078e/f/2015/207/f/e/consulting_detective_2_by_sakuranakamura-d92vt40.pnghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/8f4e/f/2015/198/4/2/blogger_by_sakuranakamura-d91o4zv.png
Clueing for looks.
 

September 23, 2015 10:39 am  #20


Re: Refugees

Yitzock wrote:

Sometimes it feels like our leaders are too busy with election debates, campaigning

Aren't they always. Not only in your country.


Here in Germany I haven't heard the word migrants. At least not from news or official speakers. And the public is really trying to help, trying to fill the word "Willkommenskultur" with life.
Still, right wing positions and people worry me. Opposition to those is strong, but it makes me so very uneasy they speak up.
Also it makes me angry that we have to protect refugees from attacks. Using violence against people fleeing from violence is just so sickening.


_____________________________________________________________

"It is what it is."

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     Thread Starter
 

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