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February 19, 2017 8:48 pm  #321


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I think at that moment he's just mad about Mary keeping more stuff from him...but they sort it out.


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February 19, 2017 8:50 pm  #322


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Let's not forget:
1.  John very nearly left Sherlock in TGG.
2. Well his feelings certainly weren't diminished in the death scene.

Sorry for double post...somebody else had posted!

Last edited by besleybean (February 19, 2017 8:51 pm)


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February 19, 2017 8:59 pm  #323


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I think that even if you want to leave someone, you would still grieve if they were shot to death. Not to mention that I think he isn't just feeling grief, I think it's mixed with guilt, shame and regret - which he redirects as anger towards Sherlock as he can't handle to face it himself.


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February 20, 2017 8:24 am  #324


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Vhanja wrote:

I think that even if you want to leave someone, you would still grieve if they were shot to death. Not to mention that I think he isn't just feeling grief, I think it's mixed with guilt, shame and regret - which he redirects as anger towards Sherlock as he can't handle to face it himself.

My thoughts exactly. 
This is also the only way to explain John's behaviour towards Sherlock. He is an ex-soldier who must know that even a consulting detective does not have superpowers and cannot protect an ex-assassin from harm indefinitely. Sherlock has tried to save Mary over and over, he was willing to give his own life for hers and what does he get from John for it? John keeps blaming Sherlock for weeks or months, up to the morgue scene in TLD which is frankly ridiculous. Unless this is John blaming himself and projecting his feelings onto Sherlock.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 20, 2017 8:36 am  #325


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I don't think he wants to leave at the end at all.  It's sorted out.  When he says he used to like "Mary" it's while he's angry that Mary has lied to him and absconded.  But I definitely see a different atmosphere between them at the end.  After all, Mary did give him the chance to find out about her past, but he chose not to take it.  And she absconded because she had to, and to protect him and Rosie.  I think he comes to understand that in TST, in the same way he comes to understand Sherlock in TLD.  Before Mary is killed, John is about to confess to the texting (partly because Mary says it's difficult because he's perfect), and John encourages Mary to go to meet Sherlock while he sorts out childcare - he's definitely caring about her and wanting to do the right thing by her at that point.  They just get so little of that time before she's killed. 

And I think it's similar in TLD - the issues between Sherlock and John are resolved at the end.  And we see how good and solid they are in TFP.  We don't get to see that with Mary exactly, apart from the brief moments leading up to her death.  But we do see John's attitude to her in TLD.  He clearly loves her deeply and is lost without her.  Unfortunately, he's been left with the guilt over the texting, which he didn't get the chance to confess.   But if he had, we know that it wouldn't have been a big deal - that it would just have helped to equalise things. 

As usual, I'm not wild about the violence in TLD, but I don't think John is going in that direction - I think that's supposed to be in extreme circumstances.  He goes to the lowest of what he can be there, then back up to the insightful, caring, assured, clever person we see towards the end and in TFP. 

 

February 20, 2017 9:20 am  #326


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I think that John clearly still cares a lot about Mary. I am not sure if he wants to leave, but I think he might be considering it. If you are truly happy and fulfilled with someone, you don't go flirting with someone else while your wife takes care of your child. 

 


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February 20, 2017 10:30 am  #327


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I rewatched HLV a few days ago and remembered how hurt John was after he found out about Mary, and how frosty their "reconciliation" is when they spend Christmas together. Apparently they haven't really talked to each other for months, and she is very pregnant. I think John is being "a soldier" in that scene and doing the right thing. I want to rewatch TST soon to see if they really go back to a good place as a couple at some point, but for what I remember from the episode, "marital bliss" are not the first words that come to my mind. Mary lies again, drugs Sherlock and leaves them all with no sign of when will she come back, and John starts his Holmes affair (pun not intended).

About Mary's leaving, even if it's to protect her family, I think it's bound to trigger again for John the painful feelings about who she is, her lies, and the dangerous life he thought he was avoiding when he married her. So my point is not that Mary leaving was "bad", but that it hurt the relationship even more.

I personally never perceived a very strong romance between John and Mary, to begin with. Not when he proposes (you can see he's still devastated by Sherlock's death, he's obviously not ready to make a long life commitment), nor immediately after they get married, and definitely not at any point after he discovers who she really is.

I also see a pretty interesting mirroring/foreshadowing in John's conversation with Mr. Hudson in TSoT (I'm sure this has been discussed already but I found out by myself and felt very proud xD):

JOHN: Did you think you’d found the right one when you married Mr Hudson?
MRS HUDSON (smiling): No! It was just a whirlwind thing for us. I knew it wouldn’t work, but I just got sort of swept along.
JOHN: Right.
MRS HUDSON: And then we moved to Florida. We had a fantastic time, but of course I didn’t know what he was up to. (Whispering) The drugs.
JOHN (laughing): Drugs? (He grimaces at the pain in his head.)
MRS HUDSON: He was running ... um, oh God, what d’you call it? Um, a ... cartel.
(John props up his head with his fingers.)
MRS HUDSON: Got in with a really bad crowd.
JOHN: Right.
MRS HUDSON: And then I found out about all the other women. I didn’t have a clue! So, when he was actually arrested for blowing someone’s head off ...
(John’s eyes drift sideways, perhaps a little confused by the matter-of-fact way she just said the phrase.)
MRS HUDSON: ... it was quite a relief, to be honest.

(Source of the transcription -> http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/66078.html)

So... I totally agree with you, Vhanja: his grief is mixed with guilt, shame and regret. And maybe even relief, as Mrs. Hudson said about her own situation. But probably John will never admit that to himself because, again, he is a soldier, and he has to take care of Rosie. But if I had to bet, I would bet on a Watson's divorce sooner or later, had she not died in TST.

In my opinion, the anger in TLD and the complicated grief John is clearly into are more related to the convoluted nature of the relationship and his own conflicted feelings than to a strong loving bond between him and Mary. I actually perceive John as having a better relationship with his wife hallucination than with the real one, and let's not forget that's not actually Mary, but a creation of his subconscious that he needs at that point. He might be creating the Mary he thought he was marrying instead of the Mary he ended up with.

Again, I'll have to rewatch S4 before making my mind about this. But this is the feeling I've gotten so far.

(Edited to add the source of the transcription)

 

Last edited by Elemental (February 20, 2017 10:49 am)


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February 20, 2017 10:36 am  #328


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Elemental wrote:

I actually perceive John as having a better relationship with his wife hallucination than with the real one, and let's not forget that's not actually Mary, but a creation of his subconscious that he needs at that point. He might be creating the Mary he thought he was marrying instead of the Mary he ended up with.

 

I agree with all you say, but most of all with this. TLD Mary is unlike the living Mary we have seen over the episodes. And why? Because she is not Mary, she is John filtered through what he would have liked Mary to be. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 20, 2017 10:54 am  #329


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Great post, Elemental. I think you have several good points. Consider this - if John wasn't married to Mary and they didn't have a child/she wasn't pregnant, would he have left her earlier?

Also, in HLV with their reconciliation, Mary promised that "any future problems are my priviliege" (paraphrased). And when future problems arose, she drugged Sherlock, didn't involve John and left. To me, that shows that a lack of trust in John and that she wasn't true to her own promise. Or perhaps more that this is a personality trait (maybe developed as a survival strategy because of her career) that she can't or won't change. John will always be left out.

I imagine that bit hurt him quite a bit, and contributed to his emotions towards her cooling off. 

I am not sure if John wanting to confess his "affair" to Mary meant that everything was ok again. Perhaps he just wanted to come clean so to break Mary's illusion of him as the perfect husband. 

Edit. As for happy times and feeling between John and Mary, I love the bedroom/bathroom scene in TEH. I think that scene, out of all scenes between them, show the most love and warmth.

 

Last edited by Vhanja (February 20, 2017 10:55 am)


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February 20, 2017 10:54 am  #330


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

SusiGo wrote:

Elemental wrote:

I actually perceive John as having a better relationship with his wife hallucination than with the real one, and let's not forget that's not actually Mary, but a creation of his subconscious that he needs at that point. He might be creating the Mary he thought he was marrying instead of the Mary he ended up with.

 

I agree with all you say, but most of all with this. TLD Mary is unlike the living Mary we have seen over the episodes. And why? Because she is not Mary, she is John filtered through what he would have liked Mary to be. 

 

 
And is actually a Mary who is pretty fond of Sherlock and very interested in them fixing things and going back to what they were.

I wonder if ghost Mary appears as the only way John allows himself to feel that he misses Sherlock and he wants to make things right with him.


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February 20, 2017 10:57 am  #331


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Yes, I think so. Beautifully said, Elemental. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 20, 2017 12:10 pm  #332


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I think John is fulfilled with Mary, but he's not particularly happy at the time he starts texting, due to the particular pressures of parenthood (neither of them adjust very well).   And I actually thought this part was fairly realistic.  Having a child is a danger point.  But John chose not to follow through on it.  I actually think John deals with this quite well - he's tempted, but reins it in and is about to confess at the end. 

I agree that ghost Mary is John's imagination - but that means it's how he sees her.  And I think he has a very positive view of her.  He clearly, clearly loves her deeply and can't even quite accept that she's gone.  Again, I find this quite realistic. 

And just adding that Mary drugging Sherlock and not telling John is to protect them.  She knows they would try to stop her or go after her, and she feels it is her responsibility.   She desperately wants to keep John and Rosie safe.  John is perhaps just as upset about AGRA not being Mary's initials.   (But even then she's not 100% lying - it's the initials of what she was, and one of the initials was hers). 

I remember before S4 aired, thinking that HLV only really makes sense if you believe that all of them really did care deeply for each other.   And I think it's the same in S4. 
 

 

February 20, 2017 12:18 pm  #333


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Oh, I do not doubt that John cares deeply for Mary. And he grieves her just as deeply. But I think we see their relationship becoming rocky in TST: Stressed over the baby, some hints that John isn't necessarily happy over the dynamic between Sherlock, Mary and him, John "used to" like Mary, John having an affair-ish... 

That is quite a lot that is going on, more than just stress over parenthood, I think.

And we can always find a reason/excuse for what action we take. Mary could always find a reason for excluding John, even when that was one of his conditions for their continued relationship.

But I do agree that what we see from John is quite realistic (perhaps except the extreme violence).


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February 20, 2017 12:47 pm  #334


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

I suppose I see things being resolved at the end of TST, in a similar way to them being resolved at the end of TLD.   Yes, Mary and John are almost rivals when it comes to being Sherlock's sidekick (known assassin/agent Mary has skills that John doesn't have, and they both have the same thirst for adventure).   In HLV, Mary insists in coming along to the drug den.  In TST, it's reversed and John is the one having to push to come along.   By the end of TST, we see them both making allowances for the other, particularly John offering to babysit while Mary goes to meet Sherlock - to me that shows that they have resolved that.  He is thinking of her. 

When John says he used to like Mary, I think he's making the point about the current situation - Mary lying about AGRA, and disappearing instead of asking for help.   I don't think he would have said it or even thought it, if Ajay hadn't appeared on the scene.  I feel that's kind of resolved, some of it even resolved within the conversation - even then, John is accepting that they have both been lying, and Mary explains why she did it.   John's confession at the end would have rounded that off nicely.

(I think it's complicated by the fact that John has this overblown faith in Sherlock, that he could keep Mary safe.  After all, he has already murdered to do that.   That means that Mary running away was unnecessary - she could just have let Sherlock sort it out - and I think that's in John's mind earlier in TST.  But of course, Sherlock isn't infallible, and Mary knows that, and it turns out that he can't and doesn't protect her in the end.  I do think Mary was probably right to run away, for the sake of herself and her family).

Last edited by Liberty (February 20, 2017 12:48 pm)

 

February 20, 2017 1:05 pm  #335


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Thanks SusiGo and Vhanja for your kind words. I'm happy to contribute to the debate

Vhanja wrote:

Also, in HLV with their reconciliation, Mary promised that "any future problems are my priviliege" (paraphrased). And when future problems arose, she drugged Sherlock, didn't involve John and left. To me, that shows that a lack of trust in John and that she wasn't true to her own promise. Or perhaps more that this is a personality trait (maybe developed as a survival strategy because of her career) that she can't or won't change. John will always be left out.
 

I totally agree with this.

And about this:

Liberty wrote:

I remember before S4 aired, thinking that HLV only really makes sense if you believe that all of them really did care deeply for each other.   And I think it's the same in S4. 
 

My view on this after rewatching HLV a couple days ago is that the force that drives the plot in both TSoT and HLV, specially the last one, is Sherlock's devotion to John. And for some reason that we didn't know yet in S3, Sherlock understands "taking care of John" as "make him stay with Mary". Pretty much everything he does in HLV is intended to accomplish that.

After she shots Sherlock, John is very pissed off and very concerned about Sherlock (both after the shot and after he escapes the hospital and has to call an ambulance from 221B). Sherlock goes out of his way to prove that Mary didn't want to kill him, that she "performed surgery" and "saved his life" (I'm not getting into whether this is true or not, but it's what we see Sherlock trying to make John believe).

Before S4 I didn't understand very well why Sherlock was so sure that Mary was what John needed and wanted, if even John didn't seem that sure himself. The scene where Sherlock tells John that "he chose Mary" is heartbreaking. Sherlock is almost dying, literally, and yet so committed with making things work between John and Mary, even if it means he and John will keep drifting apart the same way the had been before the start of the episode. Why? It would have been easier to just say "she is crazy, she tried to kill me" and uncover all the stuff she had done, or just step back and watch John distance himself form Mary, maybe forever. John was really angry and hurt with her.

But Sherlock doesn't. And my understanding after watching S4 is that, after Victor Trevor's death, he is so convinced that his friendship is harmful, that he won't be able to take care of John, that even a former assassin seems better for the task that himself. And he also knows John needs the battlefield, the adrenaline, so it seems like he sees Mary as some sort of his substitute in providing this for John.

So, I don't think they need to care a lot for each other for HLV to happen. What is shown (what I see) is that Mary does care about John (and herself), and that's why she wants to shoot CAM, but I don't know if she cares as in "I don't want to hurt the love of my life" or as in "I don't want CAM to threaten the semi-normalcy that I carved from myself". And Sherlock cares SO MUCH about John that is heartbreaking. And John cares a lot about Sherlock as well. 

But I don't see John caring so much about Mary. Not that he doesn't care at all, of course. Just not as much as he cares about Sherlock and vice versa, in my opinion. She is supposed to be his pressure point, but that's CAM opinion. He's smart, but he's not God. And Mary is carrying his child, so the pressure point could be that one, as well.

John shifts between uncomfortable and pissed with Mary the whole episode. Even when she tells him "It's a tiny bit sexy" when he goes to find the neighbour's kid, he makes a weird face and keeps walking. He doesn't smile, or kisses her with passion; I don't see chemistry. And it's Sherlock's idea to attack Appledore to save Mary and John. John follows through, but it seems like he is more motivated by the adrenaline, as he usually is with Sherlock, than for a burning desire to save his wife. It's Sherlock who has been thinking and scheming to save them both.

Bottom line: I think that Sherlock's devotion is the ultimate force behind HLV, and according to what we see in S4 it could be a misleaded devotion since it's based on the idea that he himself is no good for anyone, and less of all his best friend. Had Sherlock being emotionally more mature and processed better his past traumas, he may have told John: "yeah, mate, your wife is nuts, get a divorce and get custody of the baby and look for someone more trustworthy" http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png


I'm realising now S3 it's truly heartbreaking if you see it in the light of S4. All that loneliness. Poor Sherlock http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png


PS: Could anybody point me towards any scene of real chemistry between John and Mary after TSoT? Scenes of them being crazy about each other, being truly in love, trusting each other, laughing together. With real Mary, I mean. Because I can't seem to recall any, but I don't know if it's my own Johnlock bias here http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png

Last edited by Elemental (February 20, 2017 1:11 pm)


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February 20, 2017 1:45 pm  #336


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Liberty wrote:

And just adding that Mary drugging Sherlock and not telling John is to protect them. 
 

But before Mary drugs Sherlock, Sherlock goes to John and they decide together to put a tracker into the USB device that Sherlock wants to show her. And it´s John´s idea to put a tracker there.

That fact alone tells you more about John´s and Mary´s relationship than thousands of words. It´s a relationship of ultimate distrust in each other.

Last edited by nakahara (February 20, 2017 1:47 pm)


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February 20, 2017 1:54 pm  #337


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Elemental wrote:

PS: Could anybody point me towards any scene of real chemistry between John and Mary after TSoT? Scenes of them being crazy about each other, being truly in love, trusting each other, laughing together. With real Mary, I mean. Because I can't seem to recall any, but I don't know if it's my own Johnlock bias here http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png

Sadly, the most loving scene between them after TSoT seems to be her death scene in TST. Or perhaps you could count the short scenes where they sit together with Rosie. (In their apartment wien everyone is visiting and at the baptizing ceremony).

I think the lack of scenes between them partly comes from how the show is set up. They have very limited time (one season every three-or-so years with three episodes), and Sherlock is the main character. They can't spend too much time on anything that doesn't involve Sherlock.

I do think John cares a lot about Mary. But that their relationship was estranged and tense after the assassin reveal, and then again in TST. I don't think they ever fully recovered from that, actually. John doesn't seem too happy about his life in general, is the feeling I get. Yes, he loves the baby, of course, have some fun banter with Mary and goes on adventures with Sherlock - but he doesn't seem content with his life in general. Or maybe it's my turn to read too much into it. ;)


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February 20, 2017 4:33 pm  #338


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

To be honest, I always think John seems a bit disgruntled, no matter what his circumstances.   He does have happy times, of course, but tends more to the moody side, I think.  That was the case even before Mary.  And I think that's partly what we see with Mary  - there are similarities to his relationship with Sherlock, where it's not lovey-dovey (although we know they love each other), but it's characterised by banter and even bickering. 

I do find the scene just before Mary's death (when they get the texts from Sherlock), to be warm and loving.  But certainly after her death, in TLD, I think we see his true feelings about Mary, and how much she meant to him. 

I don't think the tracker is about mistrust, but about being able to predict Mary - she HAS to deceive them at that point.   If she came clean, they would stop her going, and put her family (not to mention her) at risk.  As I said, I think that in the end, she is right about this.  Sherlock and John are also deceiving her, but for the same reason - because they want to protect her. 

Sherlock saying that John chose Mary is a difficult scene, I agree (I've always found that one of the hardest ones to watch, as Sherlock is in such pain, and being to altruistic).  But I do think it was important for him to make John see why he fell for Mary.  I think if you look at these scenes through a filter of "Sherlock really, really likes Mary" it all makes sense.  He loves John, and he really cares for Mary (I think he does kind of love her, as a friend, by the end), and knows they are right for each other, despite everything.   I do think his deduction (that Mary called the ambulance) is probably true (there's no reason to think it isn't)  - and it's that deduction that makes him come round to understanding her and forgiving her.  He really likes her, and I think he's happy enough with it being more of a three/foursome at the beginning of TST.  It's never the same when friends get married and have kids, but I don't think they push Sherlock out (he's even quite involved with Rosie.   If anything it's less lonely then.   And I like to think that he spends a lot of time with John in HLV, before Christmas. 

 

February 20, 2017 7:10 pm  #339


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Haha, yes, that's true. John does seem to be a tad grumpy or disgruntled as a default state. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png


What I think is interesting is that it seems that John is almost always missing something in his life, although he might not know exactly what. Or might not know how to get it. In S1 and S2, he was living with Sherlock, but missed women (love/sex/romance), but was never really successfull lin getting it. Or at least not keeping it.

At the start of S3, he had a lovely fiancè, a job and a house in the suburbs, but was still not happy - he missed Sherlock. At the start of S4, he has a wife, a lovely daughter, a job, a house, adventures with Sherlock - and he is STILL not satisfied.

It's like there is always something missing from his life, something that prevents him from being properly content.


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February 20, 2017 7:58 pm  #340


Re: John's evovlement throughout the show

Let's hope he finds joy with Rosie.


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