No, I don't think he prefers a machine Sherlock at all. I think all those incidents can be explained by other factors, usually that they occur in situations where John is under stress. I also think it's very clear that John greatly appreciate Sherlock's warmer side (as can be seen during the best man speech).

Also, during (forced) forgiveness in TEH, John says Sherlock is the "kindest, bravest and wisest human being" he had ever met. At the grave i TRF, John says Sherlock was "the most human human being". When John praises and acknowledges how much Sherlock means to him, it's never the "machine" side he praises and loves. It's Sherlock's human side.

I think they both have said and done a few things that could make them seem as not good friends. The entire S1 is slightly painful for me to watch because of how Sherlock treats John.

In TSoT, John tries to tell Sherlock how much he means to him, and the important role Sherlock has played (and still plays) for John's happiness. But Sherloc doesn't listen and leaves (the bench scene). 

Yes, John is grumpy and have issues with sharing his emotions. Sherlock is rude (and sometimes cruel), and has his own issues with emotions. I think they are both slightly dysfunctional when it comes to emotions. I have more than once wondered why on earth John puts up with Sherlock, because sometimes he is treated quite horribly by him. It's a two-way street, and it seems to work for them.

Well, even though it could be an interesting point of discussion, I don't agree, either.  Just beause John may insult Sherlock sometimes, Sherlock insults John and it's kind of just what they do.  They banter, and can go from warm to cold easily, though I think that's just part of how they interact.  Liberty's comparison to Mycroft is a good one.  Mycroft is more distant to what he is dealing with (although of course this may not always be as much the case as he would like others to believe), and while Mycroft sometimes looks down on Sherlock for how much he acknowledges emotions in comparison, I think it does work in Sherlock's favour again, and since John praises Sherlock for being human I don't think he'd prefer Sherlock when he acts more like a machine.  Perhaps he doesn't always like the way Sherlock wants to deal with something, but that doesn't mean he wants him to change or only be a certain way all the time.

Vhanja wrote:

I think they both have said and done a few things that could make them seem as not good friends. The entire S1 is slightly painful for me to watch because of how Sherlock treats John.

And that´s exactly it. S1 and S2 Sherlock was a bit nastier to John, yet they got along just fine and John clearly admired Sherlock. In S3 Sherlock got a bit nicer (apologised to John, humiliated himself in front of wedding guests to magnify John´s own person) and John started to treat him with something akin to light contempt (not always, but in those situations I mentioned in my original post). So it seems as if John actually prefered the previous version of Sherlock - "a machine".

Vhanja wrote:

In TSoT, John tries to tell Sherlock how much he means to him, and the important role Sherlock has played (and still plays) for John's happiness. But Sherloc doesn't listen and leaves (the bench scene). 

John started the speech with the lofty rave about how awesome Mary is, which in my opinion is a painful subject for Sherlock, so I´m not surprised he left before John got to the point....

Vhanja wrote:

Yes, John is grumpy and have issues with sharing his emotions. Sherlock is rude (and sometimes cruel), and has his own issues with emotions. I think they are both slightly dysfunctional when it comes to emotions. I have more than once wondered why on earth John puts up with Sherlock, because sometimes he is treated quite horribly by him. It's a two-way street, and it seems to work for them.

People often say Sherlock is awkward with emotions, but I´m having my doubts about this claim being true... Sherlock is brutally honest and can´t be arsed to care if his honesty hurts people, but this is not awkwardness, it´s his "shield" against people´s ridicule and derision. Still, Sherlock clearly knows when he gets too far with his shenanigans. He has no problem to sincerely apologise to Molly or praise her for her help, to fiercely protect Mrs. Hudson... he is disturbed when the old lady is blown up in TGG and does not try to pretend indifference to her fate... althrough he is inexperienced in love, his grasp on emotions seems to be quite normal, I think.

John is much more mysterious, like a locked fortress - no one knows what is inside.

I know what you mean, but in real life I find such method of forcing people to do their task very contraproductive and unpeasant. You get your job done, maybe better than under different circumstances, but under extreme stress and it definitely leaves a bad taste in your mouth....

I wonder why Mary pointed out that "it matters now". Like, Sherlock didn´t know that?

I personally agree with Vhanja that it's a result of the roller coaster of emotions versus direct reaction to Sherlock being more human.

Poor John just can't get a break in S3! I think that his reactions show instead just how much he depends on Sherlock in times of crisis. And John's reactions, while sometimes cruel, help Sherlock get the end result to 'save the day'. They both need each other to exist. I think S3 started with showing Sherlock how badly he needs John, and ended with John seeing how badly he needs Sherlock. Sherlock took John for granted before, incapable of believing John would move on with life in his absence. He tries to go back to old ways minus his flat mate only to find his 'goldfish' had a much higher purpose and couldn't be replaced with another, previously in his eyes, identical 'goldfish'.  Thus his journey in becoming more 'human' and accepting his emotions as well as being understanding of other's emotions. He discovers emotions really aren't that evil and begins to learn how to deal with them - especially when around the people he cares for, his friends. Other people on the other hand....same old Sherlock.

I'm really nervous to see exactly how Sherlock will behave in S4. Will he continue to become more 'human'? Or will we find he's been, or will start to, play off of his friend's - even John's - emotions for his advantage? Next year needs to FLY by! It worries me that they claim S4 will be even darker. I'm sure that means even more roller coasters! <\3 Ah, but it's one of the reasons this show is so good!

In answer to the original question -no, I don't think that John would prefer a "Machine" Sherlock.
Just look how upset he gets when Sherlock behaves as such (the way he said "you machine!" in TRF...!).
I think that what John actually likes about him (well part of it, anyway) is that, as Gavin said in ASiP, "Sherlock is a good man, and one day if we're very very lucky, he might be a great one."
Series 3 gave us a huge hindsight to Sherlock's humanity -and that he's on the path to becoming a "great man"...(or maybe already is, from his final action at Appledore...his time away certainly unlocked something within.) and I really look forward to John's reaction to his understanding of it. If they show it on screen.

 

I agree that John cannot deal with an emotional Sherlock. He cannot handle his own emotions well... I think it scares him, that's why he can't understand this side of Sherlock.

 

nakahara wrote:

I just came across this blog-post and it seems an interesting thought:

http://lioncel.tumblr.com/post/125466120344/ive-got-a-huge-pile-of-ironying-to-do

And I wonder - does John prefer a "machine" Sherlock?

He reproached Sherlock his cold behaviour in TGG, but in S3, when Sherlock displayed his human, fallible side, John often reacted with anger and impatience. In TSOT, when Sherlock was under extreme duress due to wedding mixed with unexpected murder and he failed to display a solution to Sholto problem on immediate demand, John insulted him, accused him that he never was a problem-solver (really, John?) and then failed to utter even a tiniest "thank you" when Sherlock persuaded Sholto to open the door. Similarily in HLV, when it was very obvious that Magnussen gained an upper hand over them, John started asking Sherlock if they have a plan, althrough a blind eye could see that Sherlock is devastated and at the end of his wits. John then disappointedly left Sherlock´s side.

So would John actually prefer a more machine-like, robotic, infallible Sherlock? He seemed to have no patience with his friendlier, flustered, nervous self. 

Or were those just unfortunate circumstances that make him act like he did?

I think John is more comfortable with "machine" Sherlock, because he doesn't like having his beliefs and/or assumptions challenged. I think of the scene in TSo3, where when they are sitting on a park bench, Sherlock tries to do " the human thing", what everyone, including John, tells him he must do-- showing interest in another person outside the context of a case- inquiring after John's well-being, and John's like, "what are you doing? Showing interest in another human being?" And Sherlock says, "Chatting. Won't be trying that again." 

In that scene, John basically shut Sherlock down the moment he tried to reach out, and then took control of the conversation-- from a place where he felt comfortable. Not a healthy dynamic. And we see this again, and again throughout the series. John doesn't like it when Sherlock shows his "human" side. I think some of it might also be that John needs Sherlock to be a "machine", to feel ..well.. morally superior. 

Just a note: Examining character flaws doesn't mean we're attacking the character. ALL of the characters have flaws. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 13, 2015 10:00 pm)

nakahara wrote:

Lilythiell wrote:

I agree that John cannot deal with an emotional Sherlock. 

 

Isn´t this actually an admission that John would rather deal with cold, rational, unshakable, unemotional Sherlock?
 

Yep.