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July 22, 2015 8:49 pm  #21


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Yes, I agree, Raven. 
And I find it quite interesting that Sherlock is jealous of Sholto, another man, and apparently not of Mary. He is accustomed to John being with women but talking endlessly about another man - a man with qualities similar to his own, according to Mary - seems to be much worse for him. What may we conclude from that? 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

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July 22, 2015 8:51 pm  #22


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, I agree, Raven. 
And I find it quite interesting that Sherlock is jealous of Sholto, another man, and apparently not of Mary. He is accustomed to John being with women but talking endlessly about another man - a man with qualities similar to his own, according to Mary - seems to be much worse for him. What may we conclude from that? 

Hmmmm... what MAY we conclude from that... oh... OH!!!!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
 

 

July 22, 2015 9:38 pm  #23


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Dorothy83 wrote:

Mmm, I think it depends how you see it? Because all three women broke up, or walked away in the case of Louise, because of Sherlock, more or less indirectly. Jeanette for sure - yes John might have put the nail in the coffin but she wasn't stupid - she says it herself - she had to compete with Sherlock for John's attention and she was well aware that she was always going to lose. John trying to fix things by offering to walk her dog just made her walk away faster since it confirmed how little he was invested in their relationship (since he was confusing her with 'the last one').

Louise - she started changing her mind when it was mentioned that John was Sherlock's 'live in' assistant - although she definitely walked away after finding out John 'lied' to get information.

Sarah - yeah, the relationship continued, but I always got the feeling (perhaps from the whole lilo scene) that she knew there was no room for her in the life of a man who hasn't even woken up yet and at the drop of a hat disappears because he's worried about his 'flatmate', instead of, ya know, maybe giving him a call first http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png

 

From this description it seems rather that all the women walked away because of John himself. He was not seriously interested in them. Whether the real object of his desire was Sherlock or some another person is not so important here.
 


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July 23, 2015 2:21 am  #24


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

I remember John-of-the-amazing-sense-of-propriety, shouting at Sherlock that he was at the Chinese Theatre for the purpose of "Getting off with Sarah", when she walked up behind him. 

SPEAKING OF WHICH-- okay, does anyone else remember that when John stayed over at Sarah's house ( to get away from Sherlock) that he kind of tried to guilt/puppy dog eye her into sleeping with him? I mean, really John????? Really??? 

I think she knew he had no intention of settling down. From her perspective, he probably seemed rather immature for his age-- falling asleep at work, getting involved in dust-ups on a date, having to sleep at hers because of the flatmate....

If they'd actually started a relationship-- he probably would have moved in with her. Look how quickly he moved in with Mary. I adore John, but he's not the most self-sufficient character on the planet....

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (July 23, 2015 2:22 am)

 

July 23, 2015 11:50 am  #25


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I remember John-of-the-amazing-sense-of-propriety, shouting at Sherlock that he was at the Chinese Theatre for the purpose of "Getting off with Sarah", when she walked up behind him. 

SPEAKING OF WHICH-- okay, does anyone else remember that when John stayed over at Sarah's house ( to get away from Sherlock) that he kind of tried to guilt/puppy dog eye her into sleeping with him? I mean, really John????? Really??? 

I think she knew he had no intention of settling down. From her perspective, he probably seemed rather immature for his age-- falling asleep at work, getting involved in dust-ups on a date, having to sleep at hers because of the flatmate....

If they'd actually started a relationship-- he probably would have moved in with her. Look how quickly he moved in with Mary. I adore John, but he's not the most self-sufficient character on the planet....

Stereotypical straight gay traits. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png

 


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July 23, 2015 12:19 pm  #26


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

I think Sherlock might be part of the reason John's relationships didn't work out, but at the end of the day it was John who always chose Sherlock first. And that was what ended his relationships (at least the one with Jeanette). 

Of course, Sherlock's rudeness didn't help, but if John had been more invested in the relationships than with being Sherlock's whatever-it-is-they-are, then I don't think that alone would have been a deciding factor for the women he dated.

To me, it seems clear that none of his relationships worked because John always prioritized Sherlock over everything else. It took Sherlock being absent ("dead") for John to be able to get into a serious relationship.

Although when Sherlock returned, John is still thinking about him while being in bed with his newly-wed wife. So there is that.


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July 23, 2015 12:24 pm  #27


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Vhanja, I totally agree to that!

Last edited by gently69 (July 23, 2015 12:27 pm)


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July 23, 2015 12:45 pm  #28


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

So do I. Which reminds me of the Canon classic: 

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

There are some things that can only be explained if we assume that there is something between those two other than a close friendship. And John in bed is a very good example: waking up crying in ASiP (before Sherlock), lying awake and probably thinking of Sherlock in TEH and dreaming of Sherlock in HLV. Well. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 23, 2015 1:25 pm  #29


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Well, if Sherlock and John REALLY feel more than deep friendship for one another, and if Sherlock REALLY longs for a (romantic?) kind of relationship with John (which both I personally doubt), then I understand even less why he's not jealous of Mary! It doesn't matter if man or woman - John has married and fully concenrates on his patner now: Why does this romantic/sexual relation doesn't drive Sherlock mad???


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July 23, 2015 1:36 pm  #30


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

I thought about it and...well, did Sherlock even act jealous of John's girlfriends? I don't think he did. I think he considered them mostly an inconvience, an annoyance (at least until the proof themself to be useful, like Sarah and Mary did) or stimply utterly boring. During the Christmas scene for example Sherlock isn't angry that Jeanette is there, he is p... that Molly revealed how much he complained about John spending Christmas with Harry.

With Sholto he most likely acts like he does because he sees Sholto as John's "ex" in the sense that Sholto used to occopy the role Sherlock now has in John's life.

 

July 23, 2015 1:38 pm  #31


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

@ Swanpride: In contrast to the other dull and borin girlfriends Sherlock really likes Mary! That's different to John's ex ...


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July 23, 2015 3:46 pm  #32


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

kornmuhme wrote:

Well, if Sherlock and John REALLY feel more than deep friendship for one another, and if Sherlock REALLY longs for a (romantic?) kind of relationship with John (which both I personally doubt), then I understand even less why he's not jealous of Mary! It doesn't matter if man or woman - John has married and fully concenrates on his patner now: Why does this romantic/sexual relation doesn't drive Sherlock mad???

In my opinion, Sherlock doesn't have much experience with sex and therefore sex is not the first thing he worries about when he thinks about losing John.
 

 

July 23, 2015 3:52 pm  #33


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

I think Sherlock's reaction to Sholto is quite different from anything he says or does about John's girlfriends. 

As for him losing John to Mary - not everyone gets into a jealous rage. There are people who quietly leave a wedding, return to consuming drugs, and put away the chair of the person they think they have lost. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

July 23, 2015 3:56 pm  #34


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

SusiGo wrote:

I think Sherlock's reaction to Sholto is quite different from anything he says or does about John's girlfriends. 

As for him losing John to Mary - not everyone gets into a jealous rage. There are people who quietly leave a wedding, return to consuming drugs, and put away the chair of the person they think they have lost. 

and now I'm crying http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png

 

 

July 23, 2015 4:20 pm  #35


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

@ Vhanja, yes, I do think John prioritises Sherlock over dating.   Theirs is not an ordinary friendship (although I don't think it's completely unheard of to prioritise an established friendship over a date), and I think John is kind of bewitched by Sherlock - an evening fighting crime with Sherlock is always going to offer something that a date just can't.  He's also very supportive of Sherlock and cares deeply for him, so will put him first naturally (as we see in ASIB).  He's clearly very nterested in dating women, but I think he's happy enough to leave serious relationships to one side in S1 and S2.  I don't get a sense of yearning for it. 

Mary is different, partly because of who she is (I suspect that we're meant to believe that John did sense something rather unusual and exciting about her, even though I always think the comments about her choosing her are unfair), but also because she appears when Sherlock isn't on the scene - there's a huge gap in John's life, and nobody to put first.  Then afterwards, as I mentioned, it's noticeable that she isn't jealous of Sherlock and is happy for John to spend time with him. 

@Kornmuhme, I agree I don't think I see full on jealousy from Sherlock over the S1/S2 girlfriends - it's more a case of Sherlock wanting to be the centre of John's attention, and also his superior attitude to that sort of business - there's a feeling of "why waste your time with that sort of thing, when we could be doing something more interesting together".   However, it's interesting - Sherlock is at his most scathing in ASIB when he himself is being confronted with unexpected feelings.  The Christmas scene is curious, because we later find out that Sherlock is caught off guard by feelings of his own (for Irene - however you interpret what's going on between them), and I think his interactions with Jeanette and Molly have to be viewed in the light of that.   It's very much all about him, rather than about John, I think. 

Anyway, Sherlock's feelings for Irene are kind of resolved within that episode and the phone is put away.   That's not an issue in S3, so what's going on there is something different.   Sherlock is mainly dealing with his relationship with John (and by extension, Mary) throughout S3, I think. 

 

July 23, 2015 4:35 pm  #36


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

I did always also get the feeling, though, that in s1 and s2 Sherlock isn't bothered for example by John going out for drinks with Mike Stamford - although of course it isn't actually shown that John goes out with him, but we're meant to understand that they do and I'm thinking fairly regularly. Sherlock could feel that John is wasting his time with that too; but it is with John's girlfriends that he is unpleasant and short and impatient - and I think it's because he knows that Mike is nowhere near as important to John as he himself is, while the girlfriends might end up having something 'more', so I get the feeling that Sherlock wants to be 'everything' to John - his friend, but also the most important person and the only one John has a very strong relationship with.

 

July 23, 2015 8:05 pm  #37


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Something else to consider-- looking at this situation from a guy's point of view-- well, think of guys in a band that they're really, really dedicated to. (And, I get this from experience, I'm a the only woman in a Gothic/Industrial band I've been playing in for the last 15 years) Guys will NOT give up their band for a woman they are not real serious about, and what's more-- if the woman tries to put limits on their band involvement-- that's going to cause the guy to break up with them. So, a lot of women who date guys in bands end up calling themselves "band widows". Bands eat up a LOT of your time with practices several nights a week, gigs that keep you out till 2-3AM in the morning, you hob-nob with lots of people in bars  (the office) and some of those folks are very attractive women, you go on tour and are gone for weeks-- sometimes months at a time-- and there's all those band meetings, and working on your craft alone--etc, etc, ....

That's kind of what Sherlock's and John's relationship is like at its most platonic. Add to that the life-and-death element, and the fact that they really do care deeply for one another-- well, that's a lot for a woman to compete with.  And John's "moving on" reminds me of the person who decides to give up art or music, and "gow up" and "get a real job" and live according to the expectations of "normal people". Which he is most assuredly-- not. 

So, jealousy-- maybe it's more of of a sense of loss-- Sherlock's lost his partner! And it's very hard to find someone you can groove with. :-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (July 23, 2015 8:06 pm)

 

July 23, 2015 8:57 pm  #38


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Yeah, John didn't just lose a friend. He lost a way of living.


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July 23, 2015 9:01 pm  #39


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

I think that's a very good take on it.   I like the "band" analogy, because their work is a not just a job.  They have a special connection. 

 

July 23, 2015 9:03 pm  #40


Re: Why isn't Sherlock jealous of Mary?

Vhanja wrote:

Yeah, John didn't just lose a friend. He lost a way of living.

 
Very well put!


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