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May 14, 2015 1:56 pm  #1


Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

I've been re-watching ASiB today (3rd or 4th time maybe?) but haven't finished yet because I keep pausing and rewinding bits, and then I had to pick the kids up from school. Anyway, just wondering... Is this the first episode we get to see Sherlock at work in his Mind Palace? When he is talking to Irene about the dead hiker, and they both appear to be transported to the field along with the fireplace and some of the furniture... Would you say that this is occurring in Sherlock's Mind Palace or not? Irene obviously can't see the field, but I guess it is just to show us that they're both visualising the scene. Plus, it's the great outdoors rather than a Mind Palace "room" like we're used to seeing, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't. After he's passed out, Irene continues the deduction of the hiker's death and it all looks the same as when he was consciously talking to her. I'm not really sure if this can be considered to occur in his MP, firstly because he's unconscious (so is it more like a dream?) and secondly because he'd apparently already solved the case earlier; he told Mycroft that he had (or was he lying?). Does he only use his MP to solve problems?* He also indicated to Irene that he'd worked it all out, this was before he starts to walk her through his deduction to pass the time while he waits for John. They'd reached the point where the car backfires and then the fire alarm goes off. After that the CIA arrive, and then Irene drugs Sherlock and escapes out a window; they don't get to finish the conversation. So if he had already solved it, why does he continue with the deduction in his Mind Palace/while he's unconscious? Is it simply so that we, the viewers, get to see the explanation, or because he's only just figuring it out himself, unconsciously? Why is it Irene that explains it in his Mind Palace/dream ("I'll do the talking"), and not himself? Is it because he feels the physical effects of the drug and and can't talk, even though it's all happening in his head? In the real life conversation, he was urging her to use her brain ("stop boring me and think") but she didn't actually get a chance to solve it, or at least she didn't get to tell him if she had. So why does he credit her with solving it? Everyone says Sherlock admires The Woman because she's as intelligent as him, but although she's very good at reading people and manipulating them, she doesn't have Sherlock's deductive powers. Irene concedes admiringly (in the dream/Mind Palace) that Sherlock had solved the case after one look at the crime scene. Is this Sherlock's conceit, proving to himself that even though she has beaten him, he is still smarter?

I don't recall any mention of Sherlock's Mind Palace in season 1, but I have a very bad memory and would have to rewatch to be sure. So, I think the writers were still in the early stages of developing the concept of MP in season 2. We see Sherlock access it in THoB (and we get John's explanation of the technique) but he doesn't go into a "room" that we can see. I still wonder if this scene I've talked about above is meant to be MP or something else. What does everyone else think?

An unrelated thought: I get the feeling Sherlock was babbling a bit during the time it took to get him back to Baker Street and into bed. John says "You weren't making a lot of sense... I think Lestrade filmed you on his phone". I would love to see that footage! Wonder what was he saying?

*The scene in His Last Vow after Sherlock is shot indicates that his Mind Palace is more than just a place to solve problems, it's his inner psyche. The parts where Molly and Anderson help him occur in the few seconds of consciousness he has left. Then there are the scenes in the hallway with Mary and Redbeard. He is still feeling pain so he's still mostly conscious. When he starts going down the stairs, that shows he is going into his subconscious. But this would be different to when he is drugged... He is actually dying, retreating deeper into his brain than ever before.


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May 14, 2015 5:26 pm  #2


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

I think Irene is in Sherlock's room while he's asleep/unconscious, returning his coat.   It's hanging up when he wakes, and she's changed his text alert sound (and there's possibly a lipstick mark on his face!).   I imagined that the hiker deduction was going on in Sherlock's mind, as he hears Irene talk to him while he's asleep.   It's her deduction (he already knows the answer).  So I think we're hearing Irene's actual words and seeing what's going on in Sherlock's mind while he hears them - the conversation seems to fit with that.  For instance, she says "Don't get up" to him, when (in his imagination) he's not lying down (but in "real life", he is).  He tries to talk to her and can't speak. 

Last edited by Liberty (May 14, 2015 5:43 pm)

 

May 14, 2015 6:28 pm  #3


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

I like your theory, Liberty.
I never could make my mind about this scene, because it´s so wonderfully crafted, the elements of reality and halucination are so nicely put together in it, that analysing it too much would destroy it´s bizzare, hypnotic charm for me, I guess....


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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May 14, 2015 6:56 pm  #4


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

That would make sense, Liberty.  Unfortunately I don't remember it well enough to say one way or the other at the moment, though.  It does make sense.  I'm sure that they are Irene's actual deductions, because it shows how Irene has similar powers to Sherlock.


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Clueing for looks.
 

May 14, 2015 9:10 pm  #5


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

I once read someone calling that Mind Palace scene for "Sherlock's version of a wet dream". http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png


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May 14, 2015 9:18 pm  #6


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Liberty, I think you've "got it" (which is what Irene says when she comes back to the deduction)  . Your explanation fits perfectly. Thanks!

I nearly mentioned the kiss-mark, too! But I think she kisses him after she says " I'm only returning your coat", so I wasn't really taking that into account.


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May 14, 2015 9:36 pm  #7


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Is it a kiss mark? Isn't it just the cut from the riding crop?


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May 14, 2015 10:16 pm  #8


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

I don't remember a kiss mark, but I do remember the cut on his face.  Maybe we're thinking of two different things?


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Clueing for looks.
 

May 14, 2015 11:17 pm  #9


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Vhanja, that "wet dream" comment

I don't think Irene hits Sherlock in the face with the riding crop, it looks to me like she only whacks his arm. The mark is not on his face as he is falling into bed, or when he's lying on the pillow ("hush now, it's okay"). Then you see Irene's face as she says "I only came back to return your coat", and she leans closer with her lips slightly parted, then the camera returns to Sherlock's face as he awakens and you can see the kiss-mark just to the left of his mouth. You can still see it when he gets up to find his phone in the coat pocket and is looking all confused.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/be0c889c41e68feff1da82a103757619/tumblr_inline_n1iihvvYyJ1qgry3t.png

Someone has enhanced this image terribly, but it definitely looks like a kiss to me.

I love how Sherlock calls John's name as soon as he awakens

Last edited by ukaunz (May 14, 2015 11:27 pm)


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May 14, 2015 11:21 pm  #10


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Now that you've described it, I think I remember it now.


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May 14, 2015 11:27 pm  #11


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Sorry Yitzock, I edited my post as you were replying. Take a look


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May 15, 2015 8:16 am  #12


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

But if you see the next scene, with Sherlock and John reading their newspapers and talking to Mycroft, Sherlock has a clearly visible scar on his cheek. 

Oh, wait. As I typed this, I realised - that scar was probably from John punching him, wasn't it?


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May 15, 2015 8:44 am  #13


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Yes, the wound from the punch is above the kiss imprint. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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June 7, 2015 11:47 am  #14


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

Have a look at this:
http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/120859382806/57circlesofhell-tonnaree-monikakrasnorada

I'm reposting this from elsewhere in the forum so that I can discuss it further in the correct thread - which seems to be this one

I really do like the theory, but I'm not 100% convinced. I had to re-watch the relevant scenes in ASiB, and the timeline is messing with my head, but I think John is there for real, not in Sherlock's mind palace. I think the scenes when the client tells his story in 221B (where we see John on the sofa behind him) and later when John is talking to Sherlock on the laptop, occur on the same day, the day after John has returned from his trip to Dublin. Here's my long and inconclusive explanation.

If you watch the episode, go back to just before the client appears. It's daytime, and Mrs H. is cleaning out the boys' fridge. She is wearing a dark-coloured dress with a lacy collar and puff-shouldered sleeves. The client arrives and collapses in front of her, and she calls out "Boys! You've got another one!" This tells me that both Sherlock and John are at home (unless Mrs H. doesn't know that John is in Dublin, but this is surely unlikely). Then we cut to the client sitting in the chair, and John is sitting on the sofa behind him. Sherlock, off screen, says "Tell us from the start. Don't be boring". That seems to indicate that both Sherlock and actual John are in the room, listening the the client tell his story, but it's not conclusive proof, as Sherlock talks to John even when he's not there. The theory that it's Mind Palace John is based on John apparently wearing the clothes he wore in the pool scene (which is what Mind Palace John wears in TSoT), and the assumption that John is in Dublin and Sherlock hasn't noticed he's not at home. John is out of focus (possibly a clue that it's MP John), and he could be wearing the same clothes as in the pool scene. We can't really tell what shirt he is wearing, but he has a cardigan, dark blue jeans and hiking boots on (in the pool scene he wears different shoes).

We then flashback to 14 hours earlier, when the car backfires and the hiker dies. It is daylight, so it must be the previous day, although the client is wearing the same clothes as he wears later in Baker Street. I guess he's too agitated to get changed. The scene then transitions to many hours later (but when exactly? This is where the timeline confuses me). The police are investigating the crime scene and John arrives, wearing the same blue jeans and boots, but now he is wearing a black jacket over a shirt. He talks to Sherlock on the laptop, and we see that Sherlock is yawning and wrapped in a sheet. Sherlock tells John they agreed he won't leave the flat for less than a 7, and John mentions that he was in Dublin the day before and wasn't aware of the discussion. During this conversation we realise that the client is still in the room, sitting behind Sherlock, but later when the men in suits from Buckingham Palace arrive, we don't see the client at all (is he still there or not? Perhaps he's in Sherlock's mind palace, like the Mayfly Man's dates in TSoT). We do see Mrs Hudson in the same clothes we saw her wearing earlier though, so it must be the same day. How long would it take for John to travel from Baker Street to the scene of the hiker's death, could it still be the same morning? He surely wouldn't go out to the crime scene straight from his Dublin trip without first returning home to Baker Street, and hearing the client's story. Has Sherlock been in his sheet all day? We don't see him when the client tells his story, so it's quite possible that he's wrapped in his sheet all that time until getting dressed later at Buckingham Palace. There does appear to be a lot of hours in this day.

I think the client interview scene and the laptop conversation happen the same day, and that John was in Dublin the day before the client arrived at Baker Street (i.e. the day the hiker died), therefore it really is John sitting on the sofa and not Mind Palace John. But like I said, I'm still not 100% sure. The only way I can get the MP theory to work in my head is if John was at the crime scene talking to Sherlock on the laptop two days after the hiker died, having just returned from Dublin the night before or early that morning. Which would mean that more than a day has gone past since the hiker died and the police are still collecting forensic evidence two days later. So the client goes to Baker Street the day after the death, but the day before John goes to the crime scene. If Sherlock has only just got out of bed when he starts talking to John on the laptop (he's yawning and drinking tea or coffee), perhaps it's early morning of the second day and he has sent John straight out to the crime scene. That would mean the client is in Sherlock's Mind Palace while he is talking to John on the laptop, as he obviously wouldn't still be in 221B a whole day later, in the same clothes. But I don't think this is the case, because the humour of the scene lies in revealing that the client is sitting there hearing Sherlock say a bunch of mean stuff about him, and then saying "Don't worry, this is just stupid".

There's another possible clue later when Sherlock deduces John, while Irene is sitting inscrutably naked in front of him. We see the words "two day shirt" which would maybe indicate that John has returned from Dublin that morning and hasn't had a chance to change his shirt (and by the way, it's not the shirt from the pool scene as you can see clearly in this scene). Despite being a different outfit to what Mind Palace John wears in TSoT, would that confirm that it's Mind Palace John sitting on the sofa during the client interview? Then again, we still have the problem of Mrs H. wearing the same clothes in two different scenes, proving that it is the same day.

I dunno, I'm talking myself round in circles now. What does everyone else think? It would be so cool if John was appearing in Sherlock's mind palace as early as ASiB. I definitely believe in Mind Palace John in TSoT

Thanks to Ariane DeVere's transcript where I checked the dialogue, and discovered the client's name is Phil.

Last edited by ukaunz (June 7, 2015 12:39 pm)


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June 7, 2015 1:21 pm  #15


Re: Does Sherlock use his Mind Palace is ASiB?

I agree with you about the timing.  I think the hiker dies and John is in Dublin the day before the morning that Phil (thanks for the name!) arrives at the flat.  (John has to be in the flat then for the reasons you mention).   John sets off the crime scene and arrives maybe an hour or so later.  When we see Sherlock, the cup of tea or coffee seems to already have been made, so Sherlock probably hasn't just got out of bed.  (He could have gone back to bed for a nap, I suppose, but it seems as if we come in when he's already made contact with John on the laptop, although I'm not sure).  Amusingly, he seems to have been wearing nothing but the sheet ever since the client arrived. 

I don't think the client is in Sherlock's mind palace either - no reason for that.  I think it's still the same morning, and maybe he stayed around to see what John found out, or so that John/Sherlock could ask him questions when John's at the scene (he likely doesn't want to go back to the scene himself as he's a suspect). 

Last edited by Liberty (June 7, 2015 1:22 pm)

 

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