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February 1, 2015 1:41 pm  #41


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Zatoichi wrote:

The problem I´m still having with understanding cornered and desperate Mary are the following:

I can see why she´s in desperate fear of Magnussen´s knowledge on her, as this really means her life and the life of everyone she loves is in danger. I can see she´d want to save her unborn child at all costs!

But with Sherlock and John knowing it´s different. This wouldn´t mean her life is in danger, because if she really thinks John and Sherlock would just hand her over and leave her to die, then how can she ever claim to "get them" or see through them? They would never kill anyone over hurt feelings, and they´d protect her unborn child at all costs. So when she rather shot Sherlock than confide in him and risk the danger John would find out, she wasn´t desperate for her life and her child, but for her marriage. I can see how that´s still frightening when she really loves John, but well.. she´s in that corner now, and she has the choice either to risk her new-found happiness or to risk the death of her friend. She chose her marriage over a life.. and I find that very very hard to accept. We can argue that this decision had to be made very quick and she just made a mistake, but nothing whatsoever in her behaviour afterwards suggests  a feeling of regret. We can argue that she was so fixed on the idea that "no one can know, alone protects me" that she didn´t think rationally in that moment, but I find that very hard to get together with her being an ex-assassin who has to remain rational in a crisis situation. That´d be similar to "she´s a crack shot that precisely calculated the way of her bullet, but then again not really precisely enough".. the snarky bad-ass ex-assassin who can´t live 7 months without danger and yet looses rational thought when the love of her man is at stake..?

Very very interesting post, allow me to add my two cents: I think that is exactly what happened; emotion, “sentiment”, got in the way. I find it very interesting that at a time that we see Sherlock developing a great deal emotionally we are given one more example of “sentiment it a chemical defect found in the loosing side”. Sherlock has spent most of his life shutting himself off from sentiment, Mycroft (who is even more intelligent than Sherlock) still very much lives that way. And now we see how sentiment leads a “snarky bad-ass ex-assassin” totally off track.
 
Also, I think she indeed get’s both Sherlock and John absolutely wrong. She see’s them as two man who are one the side of the angles, willing to risk their life to get after “the other side”. I think she believes that once they find out that she belongs to “the other side”, they will turn on her. What she fails to see is that John is deeply bound to her by the same thing that is clouding her own judgement: sentiment. And she fails to see that Sherlock can actually emphasise a lot with “the other side”. He might be on the side of the angles, but he is not one of them. For him, it is a conscious decision that he has to make every single day of his life. One could argue that when he shot an unarmed Magnussen in the head, he decided to leave the side of the angles (at lest temporarily). In a way, the way Sherlock is wired is closer to Mary than it is to John, who is closer to Lestrade for example. John and Lestrade are “angles”, Sherlock and Mary are not and have to decide which side to stand on. And Mary fails to see that, she thinks the "angles" will turn on her, but she is blind to the fact that Sherlock isn’t one of them and John is more than just an “angle”, he is an “angle” in love with her and that alters their actions.
Admittedly, this is was quite a trip into speculation land, but there you go.


 

Last edited by Lola Red (February 1, 2015 2:17 pm)


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February 1, 2015 2:04 pm  #42


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Zatoichi wrote:

On a completely different note, it´d be interesting to know how Mary´s case would be judged by an actual jury..

Attempted murder/manslaughter I would guess. I’m not quite clear on the defining criteria of the two. “Heat of the moment” (“Affekt” for the Germans) might come into it, but fact is she shot a man from a close distance in the chest.

Zatoichi wrote:

About the stylistic choices, I guess everything from the shot to the revelation was designed in order to keep the audience guessing.. maybe even to tip the scale to the "bad Mary"-side.. just to make everyone go "oooooh" when the truth is revealed. I find myself a little tired of this story-telling-technique.. but from interviews I got the impression that their main goal is to keep a very young and engaged audience on their toes, and I guess they achieved that. Imo the show isn´t designed for people that care a lot for continuity, consistent psychological portraits and (mostly) waterproof logic anymore.. the heightened reality of S1 and 2 has been heightened to a level that some of us don´t find accessible anymore. Conclusion: I´m too old-fashioned for the new "Sherlock"..^^. Pity.

I have not gotten into the details of the stylistic choices myself yet, but I would love to read about your thoughts about it in detail (I’m also very much looking forward to SusiGo’s post about it). The “knife in the back” screen capture might have been accidental (the knife in the mantelpiece goes all the way back to Doyle), but the red cape at the airport definitely was not. What do you make of it?

Btw: I am sorry to hear the show as lost some of it’s sparkle to you, hopefully the special/next season can bring it back for you.


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February 1, 2015 2:08 pm  #43


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

@Lola: I love the way you argue. It always felt well thought through and with a healthy emotional distance. I just had to giggle when you wrote about "mixed massages". Even though they could surely need a proper massage with all the tension in HLV. ;-)

Thank you http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
And giggles are good, this is supossed to be funhttp://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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February 1, 2015 2:31 pm  #44


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I am not really for the "mislead the audience" approach myself, mostly because it rarely works with me. While I was surprised about Mary actually shooting Sherlock, I was not surprised about the "it was surgery" explanation, for the simple reason that my first thought was "they better have a good explanation how Sherlock can survive getting shot at such a close distance". So for me the "surgery" is actually the better way to keep the story realistic. Naturally one can argue that they should have gotten Sherlock shot in the first place. But if they had to, this explanation works better for me than all the alternatives (well...aside from the "one tried to shoot in the heart, but the heart was on the other side" variant, but Sherlock is definitly not a twin, so that's not an option).

 

February 1, 2015 2:59 pm  #45


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, Sherlock himself doubts he has a heart at all…http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png

But joking aside, I see your point. Sherlock does walk away from being shot; though it was an incredibly close call. In TBB we learn that “when an assassin cannot shoot straight” it means that “they are not really trying”. So we can assume that the fact Sherlock lives had something to do with what Mary did, the exact location she choose to place the bullet. I remain sceptic if “surgery” is the most appropriate term for what Mary did, but it was not a kill shot either.
 

Last edited by Lola Red (February 1, 2015 2:59 pm)


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February 1, 2015 3:03 pm  #46


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Lola Red wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

The problem I´m still having with understanding cornered and desperate Mary are the following:

I can see why she´s in desperate fear of Magnussen´s knowledge on her, as this really means her life and the life of everyone she loves is in danger. I can see she´d want to save her unborn child at all costs!

But with Sherlock and John knowing it´s different. This wouldn´t mean her life is in danger, because if she really thinks John and Sherlock would just hand her over and leave her to die, then how can she ever claim to "get them" or see through them? They would never kill anyone over hurt feelings, and they´d protect her unborn child at all costs. So when she rather shot Sherlock than confide in him and risk the danger John would find out, she wasn´t desperate for her life and her child, but for her marriage. I can see how that´s still frightening when she really loves John, but well.. she´s in that corner now, and she has the choice either to risk her new-found happiness or to risk the death of her friend. She chose her marriage over a life.. and I find that very very hard to accept. We can argue that this decision had to be made very quick and she just made a mistake, but nothing whatsoever in her behaviour afterwards suggests  a feeling of regret. We can argue that she was so fixed on the idea that "no one can know, alone protects me" that she didn´t think rationally in that moment, but I find that very hard to get together with her being an ex-assassin who has to remain rational in a crisis situation. That´d be similar to "she´s a crack shot that precisely calculated the way of her bullet, but then again not really precisely enough".. the snarky bad-ass ex-assassin who can´t live 7 months without danger and yet looses rational thought when the love of her man is at stake..?

Very very interesting post, allow me to add my two cents: I think that is exactly what happened; emotion, “sentiment”, got in the way. I find it very interesting that at a time that we see Sherlock developing a great deal emotionally we are given one more example of “sentiment it a chemical defect found in the loosing side”. Sherlock has spent most of his life shutting himself off from sentiment, Mycroft (who is even more intelligent than Sherlock) still very much lives that way. And now we see how sentiment leads a “snarky bad-ass ex-assassin” totally off track.

Yes, that actually makes sense.. So we have the dominatrix brought to her knees over her sentiment for Sherlock, and the killer brought totally off-track by her sentiment for John.. one nearly gets herself killed if Sherlock hadn´t saved her, and the other one becomes a loose cannon that nearly gets Sherlock (and possibly also other people close to her including herself) killed if Sherlock hadn´t saved her from herself.. Well, while I´m a little less than excited by the "dangerous woman trips over her love for a man"-trope I can still see them using it. (And the same motif again when Sherlock almost trips over his sentiment for the three Watsons..)
 

 

February 1, 2015 3:05 pm  #47


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Lola Red wrote:

 In TBB we learn that “when an assassin cannot shoot straight” it means that “they are not really trying”. 

But didn´t she shoot straight when she missed his head, or didn´t she shoot straight when she missed the exact spot that wouldn´t make his heart stop? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 1, 2015 3:08 pm)

 

February 1, 2015 3:21 pm  #48


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Zatoichi wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

 In TBB we learn that “when an assassin cannot shoot straight” it means that “they are not really trying”. 

But didn´t she shoot straight when she missed his head, or didn´t she shoot straight when she missed the exact spot that wouldn´t make his heart stop? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 

She didn't shoot straight when she missed his head (or heart, if you want to stay closer to the actual location of the bullet), but she still choose a very, very risky place to put it. I think she was well trained enough to know about the proximity of major blood vessels, though I cannot say if hitting them was an honest mistake or part of the Russian roulette she was playing. Hence my scepticism about the phrases “surgery” and “saved my life”

And yes I saw the smileys, but the question warrants a sincere answerhttp://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 


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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    http://i.picasion.com/av/83/2rrf.jpg
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February 1, 2015 3:25 pm  #49


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

About Mary's motive for shooting at Sherlock: I see that everybody desperately leaves out the Johnlock thought. But down the line of love being a vicious motivator, I would not rule out that Mary at least partly didn't mind shooting the man who is in love with her husband. Jealosy makes a plausible explanation IMO.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

February 1, 2015 3:28 pm  #50


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

From a realistic POV...unless Mary has been practising@t a shooting range 2 or 3 times a week....both shots are impossible.
SH has a rather well known saying about that.....

 

February 1, 2015 3:32 pm  #51


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

lil wrote:

From a realistic POV...unless Mary has been practising@t a shooting range 2 or 3 times a week....both shots are impossible.
SH has a rather well known saying about that.....

I hate to admit that, but following the inner logic of the show it is not impossible. Just think of John shooting the cabbie through two closed windows in ASIP.

Last edited by Schmiezi (February 1, 2015 3:41 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

February 1, 2015 3:40 pm  #52


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Hitting a fully grown man in the shoulder? Much much easier than the surgical strike and the coin toss shots...if we assume Mary hasn't been using her gun regularly in years...but yes maybe just a tv reality thing.

 

February 1, 2015 3:44 pm  #53


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

lil wrote:

Hitting a fully grown man in the shoulder? Much much easier than the surgical strike and the coin toss shots...if we assume Mary hasn't been using her gun regularly in years...but yes maybe just a tv reality thing.

Our physics teacher explained to me how improbable that hit would have been in real live. Both windows would alter the way of the bullet. Hiting the cabbie at all is an incredible thing to do (according to him).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still believe that love conquers all!

http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/f78f2088-06ef-444c-b254-d9efa841bc19_zps435390b3.png      http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q666/Schmiezi/140545df-e987-4a67-9272-fa8b2742790c_zpsa8b00ed8.png

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

February 1, 2015 3:49 pm  #54


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

About Mary's motive for shooting at Sherlock: I see that everybody desperately leaves out the Johnlock thought. But down the line of love being a vicious motivator, I would not rule out that Mary at least partly didn't mind shooting the man who is in love with her husband. Jealosy makes a plausible explanation IMO.

I have avoided it in my comments on Mary so far because I really did not want to hear "Of course you do not like her because of Johnlock", IMO a cheap and all-too-easy objection. But it is funny how much sense some things make if you allow for Sherlock and John being in love with each other. 

P.S. I will post some thoughts about the meaning of costumes later. 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 1, 2015 3:51 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 1, 2015 3:56 pm  #55


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

About Mary's motive for shooting at Sherlock: I see that everybody desperately leaves out the Johnlock thought. But down the line of love being a vicious motivator, I would not rule out that Mary at least partly didn't mind shooting the man who is in love with her husband. Jealosy makes a plausible explanation IMO.

Oh boy, is it wise to include a subject of passionate discussion in a thread about another subject of passionate discussion? But okay, I’ll try without setting anyone off: Assuming Johnlock is happening in the show, from what we are shown, I do not see jealousy from Mary in that regard. She seems very inclusive of Sherlock, so assuming Johnlock is happening, she seems okay with it (there are countless relations happening in this world with more than two participants with everyone involved being okay with that). She even makes it very clear that she would welcome him if John decides to forgive him after his sudden return in TEH and she very much includes him in the wedding planning and makes sure he feels he is not about to be replaced in John’s life in TSOT.
 
I’m just going to out myself here as a Johnlock agnostic, before anyone acuses me of being a)homophobic or b) delusional. I can see both: one of the greatest friendships in fiction and one of the greatest romances in fiction, depending on how I angle my head.
 
 

Last edited by Lola Red (February 1, 2015 3:57 pm)


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February 1, 2015 3:56 pm  #56


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The thing is that Mary always encouraged their relationship. Remember their last scene at the wedding?
SHERLOCK (abruptly): Dance.
JOHN: Mm?
SHERLOCK: Both of you, now, go dance. We can’t just stand here. People will wonder what we’re talking about.
JOHN: Right.
(Mary reaches out to touch Sherlock’s arm, her voice tearful.)
MARY: And what about you?
JOHN: Well, we can’t all three dance. There are limits!
SHERLOCK: Yes, there are.

Mary is the one who keeps encouraging this friendship, and she seems to be genuine concerned about Sherlock. She is not the one who keeps John and Sherlock apart after the wedding. It is a combination of Sherlock going after Magnussen and doesn't want John to know what he is up to because he knows the John wouldn't approve, and John trying to be a "good husband". The only time she tries to stop him from bing John is when he wants to storm a drug den alone...and even then she let's him go, as long as she is allowed to provide back-up.

 

February 1, 2015 4:00 pm  #57


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

And I like the concept of the greatest friendship in fiction, but I wouldn't oppose the greatest romance in fiction either. I just don't see it at this point. I still maintain that John and Sherlock are deeply in Agape, but there is no sign of them being in Eros. I don't mind if other people see it that way, but there is no sign in the show whatsoever that Mary is jealous of Sherlock. I get the impression that she likes adventerous John even better than solid John, if for no other reason that John is happier when he gets his adrenaline fix.

 

February 1, 2015 4:03 pm  #58


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But there is not a single scene in HLV in which she encourages the friendship. For me there is a clear change in her behaviour from the beginning of this episode. Mary snapping at John when he mentions Sherlock. And how does she provide back-up - by sitting in a car in her pyjamas? I got the feeling that she did not want to miss the excitement. 

But there is one thing I fully agree with - John trying to be a "good husband". But why does he have to try only weeks after the wedding? Why can he not just be a good husband? Because his heart is not fully in this suburbian married doctor idyll which is proven in the lab scene. And it is so obvious that even Billy Wiggins can deduce it. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 1, 2015 4:09 pm  #59


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Schmiezi wrote:

lil wrote:

From a realistic POV...unless Mary has been practising@t a shooting range 2 or 3 times a week....both shots are impossible.
SH has a rather well known saying about that.....

I hate to admit that, but following the inner logic of the show it is not impossible. Just think of John shooting the cabbie through two closed windows in ASIP.

Schmiezi wrote:

lil wrote:

Hitting a fully grown man in the shoulder? Much much easier than the surgical strike and the coin toss shots...if we assume Mary hasn't been using her gun regularly in years...but yes maybe just a tv reality thing.

Our physics teacher explained to me how improbable that hit would have been in real live. Both windows would alter the way of the bullet. Hiting the cabbie at all is an incredible thing to do (according to him).

You both make valid points. In show universe, the skill level of the shots is incredible, in reality it is very improbable that any of the shots would have worked out the way it did. In show universe John was without any problem able to take out the cabbie, in reality he was just as likely to hit Sherlock or no one at all. In show universe, Mary had good reasons to trust herself to were exactly she put the bullet (and might or might not have slightly overestimated her abilities), in reality, all she could have claim was that she did not aim directly at Sherlock’s heart.

 


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February 1, 2015 4:45 pm  #60


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

But there is not a single scene in HLV in which she encourages the friendship. For me there is a clear change in her behaviour from the beginning of this episode. Mary snapping at John when he mentions Sherlock. And how does she provide back-up - by sitting in a car in her pyjamas? I got the feeling that she did not want to miss the excitement. 

But there is one thing I fully agree with - John trying to be a "good husband". But why does he have to try only weeks after the wedding? Why can he not just be a good husband? Because his heart is not fully in this suburbian married doctor idyll which is proven in the lab scene. And it is so obvious that even Billy Wiggins can deduce it. 

I see what you mean. I feel both are very snappy at each other. Mary seems annoyed with John’s handling of the whole situation with her neighbour (I feel her snapping is more directed at John’s attitude than the mention of Sherlock); John is uncharacteristically insensitive towards someone in distress and shouts at his wife. Also the pregnancy still seems very much one the forefront of their minds, maybe they are still freaking out a little bit about becoming parents? Or they are both bored out of their skins without Sherlock in their life (John’s PTSD seems to be playing up again)? With both of their pasts, both seems understandable.

About her not encouraging the friendship in HLV, that is true. Mary, Sherlock and John haven’t seen each other for a month (since the wedding?), unfortunately we are not made privy to the reason behind that. Was there a fight? About Sherlock leaving the wedding early? Did they just recently return from their honeymoon? Did John and Mary decide to life a less dangerous lifestyle now they have a child on the way (we know that wherever Sherlock is, danger is not far behind)? Did Sherlock break off the contact because now there is “a real baby on the way”? It’s hard to tell why they have been out off touch for so long, but fact is when they meet again, Sherlock is high on drugs. John is (rightfully) furious with him, but Mary just seems quite glad to see him back, drugged or not, and frankly seems amused by his newest shenanigans. Next thing we know, the boys are driving back to Baker Street on their own. If Mary had anything to do with that arrangement, we cannot know thanks to Sherlock’s filtering. The next time Mary sees Sherlock, she shoots him, so from there on distance between John and Sherlock would be very much in her interest.
 

Last edited by Lola Red (February 1, 2015 4:49 pm)


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