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February 20, 2014 6:30 pm  #41


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I have to add I didn´t like the end sequence, we know from ASiP that Sherlock is under surveillance and him flying to Karachi unnoticed and fooling Mycroft although he thoroughly checked it is her this time (you would like to see a head after a beheading?) is VERY unlikely to say the least. All the slashed terrorists would probably also lead to questions..)[/i]

And NOBODY Sherlock associated with knew he had left the country? Plus, how did he get past all those terrorists or whoever they were? I know he was in disguise but he was still VERY outnumbered and everything.

AND, in a way, I don't understand why Irene was about to be beheaded. I know those kinds of villains will kill their own minions who fail...but Irene was let go by Sherlock and Mycroft, so it wasn't like she was going to turn other people in to save herself. She really would have been free to go back to doing...what she'd been doing...if her OWN people didn't capture her.

The cameo of Irene in the mind palace seemed like the thoughts of a...more typical...hetero male. Distracted by something (potentially) sexual when he's supposed to be thinking of something work-related or important or serious.

I'm a Johnlocker based on canon, and the Brett series. I don't know if I would be if this series was the extent of my knowledge of Sherlock Holmes.

 
Sherlocklives, there are those of us who think there is a great deal of ambiguity in the rescue of Irene scene and that perhaps it wasn't real at all but just something Sherlock imagined doing.  After all, just before that final scene we hear from Mycroft that Sherlock wanted to be a pirate when he was little. Romantic, dashing pirates in books and movies are known for daring-do and rescuing maidens.  It makes me wonder how much of the rescue was in Sherlock's imagination vs. if it was real.  Again, the ambiguity that this show is famous for.  But since I don't like Irene, I like to think it was all in Sherlock's mind and that she is now quite officially dead. 

I can see Johnlock in the Brett series - but have a harder time with canon.  Way too much Victorian sensibility there. It was BBC Sherlock that turned me into a raving Johnlocker.  I laughed at the gay innuendo in the first series and thought it was clever and charming, but then with Series 2 and all the jealousy factors in ASiB and John's collapse into grief on the sidewalk, etc. a more serious tone was struck and I was a goner.  Not to mention how great they look together - so opposite in appearence and yet such wonderful chemistry.


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And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

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February 20, 2014 6:34 pm  #42


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Just wanted to add to my post above that it wasn't until I found this forum and started watching fan vids on Youtube that I realized there were thousands more who were seeing the same things I was seeing in regards to Johnlock.  It was nice to find out I was not alone.


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And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

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February 21, 2014 12:19 am  #43


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Sherlock is supposed to be more head than heart...you would think there should be a "too evil for me," for him...that he would have some measure of disgust at what Irene was doing. He absolutely HATES CAM...and yet Irene was also not only collecting personal secrets but endangering British security (supposedly). Mycroft didn't care about stopping CAM (still trying to figure that one out); Irene was seen as more of a threat.

Sherlock doesn't necessarily solve crimes because he's morally outraged about them (even in canon there are times he's sympathetic to someone who has committed a crime)...but this is a woman who tried to hurt him and John. In canon, Irene was not too bad of a person. There is some suggestion that the King who was her former lover might have harmed her.

And another thing...if Sherlock had dinner with Irene...I'm surprised CAM never found out. Sherlock being under suveillance might be part of why he doesn't "have dinner" with women or men.

Although Sherlock Holmes having a sex life wouldn't be a big scandal in this era, if it was Irene, CAM could have tried to twist it into "consorting with the enemy." Right or wong, people who associate "personally" with known criminals get investigated...

 

February 21, 2014 4:39 am  #44


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I like to think that Irene spoiled the little chances she might or might not have had by allying with Moriarty. 

You mean, this kind of turned Sherlock against her, or made him not trust her? Moriarty threatened John, after all.

I mean up unitl then she was just a dominatrix with some compromising secrets who wanted to stay safe, but at that point she crossed the line of becoming a criminal. She spoiled Mycrofts scheme to keep their source of information safe from the terrorists, which probably resulted in his/her death. She used her knowledge for personal enrichment. And yes, I think Sherlock despises that, not just because Moriarty threatened John (although this might also be contributing). This is not the kind of crime he (or canon Holems) might feel any sympathy for. He might not want her to be dead, he might even cherish some memories of her, but he would never consider a close relationship with someone like that.
 

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 21, 2014 4:39 am)

 

February 21, 2014 6:46 am  #45


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Really?
Well BBC writer and actor seem to think Sherlock was genuinely attracted to Irene, but it would have been disasterous for the world, if they had got together.
Though maybe Sherlock could have kept her in line.


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February 21, 2014 6:49 am  #46


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

You mean he could have kept her on a leash? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

 

February 21, 2014 6:55 am  #47


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Oh don't!


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February 21, 2014 7:03 am  #48


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
 Sorry.

 

February 21, 2014 7:16 am  #49


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

No need for an apology.
That's just me, I'm weird..


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February 23, 2014 3:09 am  #50


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

besleybean wrote:

You think Canon and Brett are more Johnlocky than BBC Sherlock?
There's a novelty!

The reason I say this is:

1) BBC Sherlock teases us with many more potential love interests - introduces considerably more sexual tension between Sherlock and Irene than in canon where she outwits him but they really hardly interact (though many adaptations are guilty of that), and BBC also suggests his possible interest in Molly and Janine. In canon, there is NO ONE else significant in Holmes' life, and the only canonical love interest for EITHER is Mary.

2) In canon, they don't fight and snark at each other the way they do hear. Holmes can be blunt to the point of unkindness in criticizing Watson's inability to deduce the way he does. And Watson will sometimes stand up for himself in his response to that...and Watson certainly expresses his disapproval of some of Holmes' more dangerous habits...but their relationship is..."softer" for lack of a better word. There is a sense of mutual caring and protectiveness, and, on Watson's side, hero-worship. And we see them spending time together when not on cases. And there's a fair amount of physical contact (usually done by Holmes).

In some ways, the fact that there IS "Victorian sensibility" in canon makes it easier to imagine Johnlock behind the scenes: just because they're not saying it doesn't mean it isn't happening - they can't say it. In today's media, pretty much anything goes, so if they don't say, you wonder why they don't, if it's happening?

As for the Brett series...the physical contact is there, and well, there's something about Brett's voice. You can hear Holmes talking to Watson in that voice in more...private...moments.

Getting back to Irene, another thing - I don't know if Sherlock has any moralistic feelings about her sex life, or sex in general, but I guess I kind of think that ego would play a role in Sherlock's relationships. He learned to be friends with John in part because John found him brilliant and fascinating. So maybe he'd feel that way about a love interest, too? In other word, he would want a woman to be interested in him because she found him amazing, more so than other guys?

Now, Irene DOES admire his intellect, but she's a...sex worker...by profession. Wouldn't Sherlock ever think, "Well, she has sex with a lot of powerful people, and she probably flatters them too? What makes me different?

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 23, 2014 4:02 am)

 

February 23, 2014 7:14 am  #51


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Getting back to Irene, another thing - I don't know if Sherlock has any moralistic feelings about her sex life, or sex in general, but I guess I kind of think that ego would play a role in Sherlock's relationships. He learned to be friends with John in part because John found him brilliant and fascinating. So maybe he'd feel that way about a love interest, too? In other word, he would want a woman to be interested in him because she found him amazing, more so than other guys?

 
For obvious reasons I like to think that way (the reason being that I'd be a better match for him than Irene if he felt like this  ). But then he was very intrigued by all her drama and power-play, wasn't he? Maybe he'd feel bored without being challenged, who will ever know..

As for your last passage, I think he was too far from actually being with her to have such doubts..

 

February 23, 2014 8:47 am  #52


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Just an aside...do we know for certain Irene had sex with her clients?
I thought she just tied them up and beat them?


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February 24, 2014 4:00 am  #53


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

besleybean wrote:

Just an aside...do we know for certain Irene had sex with her clients?
I thought she just tied them up and beat them?

Presumably they consented...but Sherlock didn't when she beat him. Or maybe he secretly does have those tastes?

I don't know how it works in the UK, but in the US, the selling of sexual favors for money is a crime in itself. They could have arrested her for that without any showing of blackmail or collecting government information. Rightly or wrongly, the current system in the US tends to punish the prostitute more than the "customer."

 

February 24, 2014 6:56 am  #54


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Same here, I think.


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February 24, 2014 5:24 pm  #55


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

In the UK the exchange of money for sex is not, in itself, illegal. There are a number of ancillary offences for things like soliciting, and kerb crawling, but those are somewhat different.

There is nothing in our law to prevent a dominatrix whacking her consenting clients, and there is nothing in our law to prevent a dominatrix having sex with her consenting clients.

So, a bit tricky arresting Irene on those grounds

 

February 24, 2014 6:55 pm  #56


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

And you have to catch her first!


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February 24, 2014 11:43 pm  #57


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Especially with her 'contacts' in the police force!


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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February 25, 2014 2:46 am  #58


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

I thought the whole point of her blackmail was that she had people in sexual situations? 

I was surprised that was still usable for blackmail today, frankly, but I guess, if they're married...

She threatened /offered to "have Sherlock on the desk til he begged for mercy twice"...the begging for mercy would be more literal if it involved beating, but I thought she meant she wanted to, well, "do" Sherlock until it was "so pleasurable it was painful."

Her collaboration with Moriarty is the most disappointing part...because it makes her both more of a bad guy and less of a strong woman (in the sense that a man kind of had to tell her what to do.)

 

February 25, 2014 9:16 am  #59


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

Yep, she made a bad choice..


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March 3, 2014 7:50 am  #60


Re: What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I thought the whole point of her blackmail was that she had people in sexual situations? 

I was surprised that was still usable for blackmail today, frankly, but I guess, if they're married...

Agreed^ So she has compromising photos of a 'close' member of the Royal family... in light of recent RL pics leaked of Prince Harry and Duchess Kate, all it would do is embarrass the Queen. I thought a Profumo-like situation involving clients with state-sensitve intel would more likely warrant Mycroft's attention.

Also, don't know if it's book canon, but Guy Ritchie's movie Irene is also a pawn of Moriarty, so it's interesting that Moffat would do the same here. Not something I agree with either btw.
 

Last edited by CuteCumber (March 3, 2014 7:51 am)


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