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April 27, 2014 9:54 am  #41


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I completely agree.


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April 27, 2014 2:17 pm  #42


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

@Tinks: You are not the only one here who thinks this! XD There are lots of things I have a problem with in Series 3 to the point where I dread watching it, especially how The Empty Hearse totally destroys the emotional impact of The Reichenbach Fall. Series 3 was a mess to me, but many people seem to enjoy Series 3, which I don't have a problem with. 

I'm still wondering if even this Series 3 was real or was it just a dream. I still think that ever since TEH. XDDDDDDDDDD

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (April 27, 2014 2:22 pm)

 

April 27, 2014 3:31 pm  #43


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Well, it's BBC Canon now and we all have to live with it!


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April 27, 2014 4:02 pm  #44


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I was dreading the 3rd series as well, because I loved (and still love) so much TRF and didn't want to have it spoiled. But then kind of a miracle happened: I disconnected the TRF and TEH emotionally. Although TEH is not my favourite episode of the series - I rank it just above TBB and THoB - I actually found the strategy of Moftiss brilliant: had they given me one clear and rational explanation, I would have been disenchanted and disappointed, just like Anderson . By giving us 3 different ones, two obviously ridiculous and the third just roughly acceptable, they left the space for a metaphysical dimension expressed in the conversation between Sherlock and Watson at the end of the episode. It saved TRF for me and let me enjoy the 3rd series a lot.

 

April 27, 2014 4:13 pm  #45


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

besleybean wrote:

Well, it's BBC Canon now and we all have to live with it!

Yup, it is. Though, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (April 27, 2014 4:15 pm)

 

April 27, 2014 4:16 pm  #46


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Indeed not and this is why we have fan fiction!


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April 27, 2014 4:17 pm  #47


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

besleybean wrote:

Indeed not and this is why we have fan fiction!

Thank god for that! XD
 

 

April 27, 2014 4:24 pm  #48


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Well I don't indulge, but I think it's great for those who do.


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April 28, 2014 6:49 am  #49


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison


Thanks for being so understanding about my criticisms ladies!
I'm always very careful because sometimes if you have something with such a large following as Sherlock has (and Moftiss, for that matter!), you can find that some people will hear no other argument but that everything they do is great!
I must admit I'm very nervous for season 4 (if it happens!) - I want to absolutely love it, and I'm not sure if I will!


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

April 28, 2014 9:06 am  #50


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

There are lots of things I have a problem with in Series 3 to the point where I dread watching it, especially how The Empty Hearse totally destroys the emotional impact of The Reichenbach Fall.

I pretty much agree with you when it comes to TEH and what it does to TRF. And I'm not talking about the explanation(s) for how Sherlock survived the fall here, that's really not the point for me. Funnily enough though, initially I thought it was... I really thought that I definitely need that explanation, and it has to be a convincing and clever one, too. But I've come to the realization that what I really would have needed was some more time just between Sherlock and John... there was so much (too much) going on in that episode... and even though I truly love the last scene with Sherlock and John in the hall - yes, the true reunion - there's something missing.

Tinks, I understand so well what you mean. I'm not really nervous about S4 (yet), but the gut feeling I had right after HLV had aired and we finally knew the complete S3 still hasn't vanished completely and probably never will: S3 is different, it feels different, there are lots of things I love about S3... but all in all too many things are just a little off.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"
http://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 28, 2014 9:18 am  #51


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I read an interesting post on tumblr about the structure of the show as a whole. There was one thing I found quite intriguing, the idea that it is not (and has never) been a homogenous show but a series of 90 minute feature films. Of course they are deeply connected via the creators, actors etc. but they all have a different feel. And this is more distinct in series 3 than in the others. 

Leaving aside the flaws in series 3 (which I do not deny at all) I honestly do not think the series would continue to be that successful if they had kept to the one big case per episode/admiring John/cold and cerebral Sherlock pattern. It may be debatable if all of their choices were right but there had to be a development and they chose to concentrate on the characters. And IMO the scenes that reveal new sides to characters, especially Sherlock and Mycroft, are among the best in series 3.   


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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     Thread Starter
 

April 28, 2014 9:45 am  #52


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

SusiGo wrote:

I read an interesting post on tumblr about the structure of the show as a whole. There was one thing I found quite intriguing, the idea that it is not (and has never) been a homogenous show but a series of 90 minute feature films. Of course they are deeply connected via the creators, actors etc. but they all have a different feel. And this is more distinct in series 3 than in the others.

The thing probably is, it's mainly a "feel". I can't even really put my finger on it or give concrete examples why S3 feels different to me, I can only say that it does. Maybe it's because TSoT really means some new terrain, it feels the least like "Sherlock" (to me) and because it's the middle episode it somehow splits S3 in a way that makes it difficult for me to see (and feel!) the connection between all three episodes. Yes, with the last few minutes of TSoT they managed to prepare the audience for a dark final episode, but still... I just always had the feeling that there is a more harmonious flow in S1 and S2 than in S3.

And of course things have to be different in S3, after all Sherlock returns from the dead after two years, so it's only logical that they can't continue as if nothing had happened. But there are various ways in which you can show those changes, and I'm just not happy with all of the decisions they've made for S3.


 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"
http://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 28, 2014 12:15 pm  #53


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

SolarSystem wrote:

I pretty much agree with you when it comes to TEH and what it does to TRF. And I'm not talking about the explanation(s) for how Sherlock survived the fall here, that's really not the point for me. Funnily enough though, initially I thought it was... I really thought that I definitely need that explanation, and it has to be a convincing and clever one, too. But I've come to the realization that what I really would have needed was some more time just between Sherlock and John... there was so much (too much) going on in that episode... and even though I truly love the last scene with Sherlock and John in the hall - yes, the true reunion - there's something missing.

The problem I have is the fact that Sherlock and Mycroft had everything under control, which totally destroys the entire episode as well as the next episode after it. It felt like there were no consequences except for the fact that Sherlock had to fake his death and live without all the support of his friends. Which you find it was unnesscary when Sherlock said that Mycroft took care of the sniper that was aiming at John(What about the assassins for Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson? Did Mycroft take care of them too? Did they leave or did the writers' just forget to mention them? Why forget to mention, then? It wasn't just John that was in danger! They are important to Sherlock too!). So if Mycroft took care of the threats to Sherlock's friends then why didn't Sherlock go to John and his friends to say "Hey! I'm alive!" Why all the song and dance of having John to suffer all that he did in the two years Sherlock pretended to be dead? That's not right! You could say they still had to do it for Moriarty's network, but what for? It is been pretty clear that none of Moriarty's network came after his friends or his parents since they knew he was alive(Come on! The parents didn't even go to the funeral! You would think the network would see that something was fishy even if John was grieving.) So why? 

Why give the answer that totally elimnates the entire reason for Sherlock to actually remain dead for two years? I just hope that explantion was just a lie. I hope it is. Also, the explanation totally forgets about Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson. I mean, again, they are important too! They are people Sherlock cares about too! What about them? *headdesk*

It's just...ugh. XD So much issue I had with that. XD Not the explanation, but what it does.

The reunion scene was okay. I expected John to be really hurt that he had to go through so much just to find out that his best friend didn't die after all, but the scene in the subway floored me. No! NO Sherlock! You don't force/mainpulate your best friend to forgive you! That's not how it works! John needs time to forgive you! NO! Bad Sherlock! BAD! 

@Tinks: I worried about Series 4 too. After Series 3, my hype for Series 4 is just...zlitch! XD
 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (April 28, 2014 12:19 pm)

 

April 28, 2014 12:37 pm  #54


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

Why give the answer that totally elimnates the entire reason for Sherlock to actually remain dead for two years? I just hope that explantion was just a lie. I hope it is.

I actually have my doubts that this explanation is anymore true than the other two we were presented with. It certainly is the most plausible out of the three, but it also has its flaws, as you've just pointed out. Just thinking about that blue air bag... I don't believe for one second that this would have worked without John noticing. 
But like I said, there were various other things throughout S3 that didn't work for me.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"
http://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 28, 2014 12:56 pm  #55


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

SolarSystem wrote:

I actually have my doubts that this explanation is anymore true than the other two we were presented with. It certainly is the most plausible out of the three, but it also has its flaws, as you've just pointed out. Just thinking about that blue air bag... I don't believe for one second that this would have worked without John noticing. 
But like I said, there were various other things throughout S3 that didn't work for me.
 

Yeah, there are other things that didn't suit well for me in Series 3.

There are people out there that think we will get the true explanation in Series 4. If that happens, I might feel abit better, but just like you said, there are other things that happened that haven't suited well for me as well.
 

 

April 28, 2014 1:03 pm  #56


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I'm not sure how they would pull it off to give us the true explanation in S4, but to be honest I hope they won't. For me that chapter is done and I'm hoping for lots of other things now. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"
http://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

April 28, 2014 1:07 pm  #57


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Yup, it is time to move on despite that fact that I just can't believe it. XD 

I just don't know what they are planning in Series 4 and 5 now. After Series 3, I'm not so sure anymore. XD

 

April 28, 2014 6:07 pm  #58


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

They said in one of the inverwies there will be no other explanations. Just take it or leave it. I think the third explanation was the "right" one, but they mudded the waters in order to give to the fans who didn't like it the escape way - some incongruous things, like Sherlock calling Anderson "Philip" (pretty much impossible and in fact in HLV we are back to "Anderson") were definitiely introduced to this purpose. I am happy with this and I just established in my "headcanon" that Sherlock survived "somehow" so I can still enjoy TRF.

 

April 28, 2014 7:21 pm  #59


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

I kind of know what you mean...
The only way TRF doesn't lose impact for me, is that we have whinging John through series 3 and constantly apologetic Sherlock!


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April 29, 2014 8:47 pm  #60


Re: Series 1/2 and series 3 - a comparison

Personally, I see nothing wrong with TEH. Everytime I rewatch it, it strucks me as a witty, humorous, cheeky, nicely filmed episode with some heartfelt homages to both fandom and the original material. And even those who think that this episode was somewhat weaker than episodes of previous two seasons must admit that TEH was better entertainment than 99% of the TV shows produced today.
 
My personal opinion is that most complaints against TEH are a case of „Ruined Forever“:
 
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/RuinedFOREVER?from=Main.RuinedFOREVER
 
The show was frantically hyped which (combined with a long hiatus between seasons) contributed to the unrealistical expectations of some fans about the actual content of the show. No surprise then that such people were a bit disappointed when they finally saw TEH - which is a fine episode by itself, but maybe not so groundbreaking as they expected. People whose imaginations of the episode were destroyed then forgot to enjoy the actually existing episode, which – standing alone - is quite funny and highly entertaining.
 
And we cannot forget that sometimes the audience is just „unpleasable“:
 
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase
 
I still remember that both „The Blind Banker“ and „The Hounds of Baskerville“ were originally dissed as being bad – even if they are parts of the celebrated S1 and S2 of Sherlock. Yet with time the fans adjusted to them and they are now seen as normal quality parts of Sherlock (as they should be, in my opinion – I liked both of them). Similarly, Andrew Scott was originally criticised as being the worst Moriarty ever – then he got a BAFTA for his portrayal of that criminal mastermind. It just illustrates how fickle the complaints about the content of the show really are sometimes.
 
But back to the TEH: even if TEH was a disaster (which it wasn´t), it would never be able to ruin TRF. TRF isn´t only about John´s hurt feelings and emotional suffering and about Sherlock convoluted faked death, even if some fans are fixated on this. TRF will forever be a chilling and powerful episode because it deals with two really strong themes:
 
Character assassination
 
Character assassination is a deliberate and sustained process that aims to destroy the credibility and reputation of a person, institution, social group, or nation. Character assassination is an attempt to tarnish a person's reputation. It may involve exaggeration, misleading half-truths, raising false accusations, planting and fostering rumours, or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person. It is a form of defamation and can be a form of ad hominem argument. For living individuals targeted by character assassination attempts, this may result in being rejected by their communityfamily, or members of their living or work environment. Such acts are often difficult to reverse or rectify, and the process is likened to a literal assassination of a human life. The damage sustained can last a lifetime or, for historical figures, for many centuries after their death.“
 
No matter how Sherlock faked his death, the way Moriarty employs his devilish manipulations to destroy Sherlock´s reputation will always be fascinating and scary to watch.
 
Media bias
 
The power of repulsive tabloid journalism but also the established journalism to destroy lives with deliberate libel and it´s irresponsibility for the damage caused by their hyenistic pursuit of sensations was perfectly potrayed here. The Kitty Reillys of this world with their wrong convictions of their moral superiority are more numerous than you can imagine. It was disconcerting to see how media can put the person on a pedestal and then destroy them on their whim – and to remember, that it´s often like that in real life.
 
Considering TEH, it is understandable why it was written the way we saw onscreen:
 
The things like faked Sherlock´s death, his return from the dead, the fact he left John in the dark for some years about his survival, the motive for his disappereance (disbanding Moriarty´s powerful criminal organisation), Mycroft´s involvement in his faked death – they are all parts of the ACD´s canon.
 
The moment Sherlock jumped from the roof, John, Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson were saved. It was not important to dwell on that when revealing the method of Sherlock´s survival, because it was irrelevant: chronologically, Sherlock was forced to plan the method of his survival long before he was informed that those three are in danger.
 
John´s and Sherlock´s reunion was written quite right: if it was too sappy, it would look ridiculous onscreen and terribly OOC (even if it is pleasant to read Sherlock and John making long heartfelt speeches swelling with emotions in fanfiction, such sacharine things would ruin the actual broadcasted episode).
 
Sherlock deceiving John into forgiving him: face it, Sherlock acts. He acts all the time, he and his brother Mycroft have personalities that enjoy unnecessary dramatics and theatrical plots and both brothers often behave in an ovedramatic fashion. Sherlock acting in the train car was just his method how to skate out of an emotional situation without sliding into sappiness himself. It also helped an emotionally repressed John to voice his forgiveness which was already in John´s heart – but would remain unmentioned if Sherlock didn´t force John to voice it with his "deception".


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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