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February 24, 2014 4:46 am  #41


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I think it's been fantastic to include so many good specific examples and quotes for this discussion,
thanks all!  For me, the ambiguity of Mary's character and motives have been a really
fascinating piece of writing.    She's so well written IMO.  I do find the love between her and John is
palpable,  albeit often  unsaid or off-screen.   We already know that the bond between Sherlock
and John was also unconditional and had been unspoken for many years.    However we feel about
Mary,  and whether we believe this terrific character belongs in the future episodes, I for one am in awe
of the performances and the skillful writing.

 

February 24, 2014 5:01 am  #42


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Willow wrote:

Wholocked

I doubt that many people can understand what motivates people who kill for money; Moftiss made quite sure that there is no get out route along the lines of 'she did it for her country', or 'she did it because she was attacked'. They deliberately made her someone alien to most of us; I can imagine myself killing someone for a number of reasons, but I can't imagine that.

I thought she worked for the CIA...which would mean she was paid by them but also that, theoretically, she would be in the service of the US government and interests, which would be aligned with the UK. I know the CIA is different from the military but there are similarities in method and purpose, and they were both in Afghanistan fighting al Queda...remember the big story about the CIA agent killed soon we went into Afghanistan following 9/11?
.
And Mary also tells us the kinds of people she killed were people like Magnussen.

I think they could also have set it up to eventually reveal that her background was a fake, planted to trap Magnussen or that someone confused her with someone else...IF it weren't for the shooting of Sherlock. That's what there's really no going back from.

 

 

February 24, 2014 5:08 am  #43


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

I will agree with Swanpride on TEH. I don't see anything wrong with Mary's actions in this episode. She is very supportive and seems to want to help John try and fix his relationship with Sherlock.

Susigo, you make a good point about the fact that in TSoT, we never saw the marriage vows nor did we see Mary and John show declaring their love for one another. Mostly, the episode focused on John and Sherlock. Mary seemed to just be there in the wedding dress. I think that is the fault of the writers, not of the character herself. 

Up until HLV Mary seemed to be facilitating Johnlock. She is almost shipping John and Sherlock, to the point it really does feel like they're all three getting married. And of the three of them planning the wedding, it is John who is the LEAST into it - Mary and Sherlock plan. 

As I have said, there is fanfic where they're a threesome, or triad (some of it canon-based, some of it Guy Ritchie-based) and I can actually see this Mary going for that.

What hurt the Johnlock for me was John's still having conflicted loyalties to both of them after Mary shoots Sherlock, and allowing Sherlock to sacrifice himself. Then it's implied that John's married life is now more important...I don't have that hard of a time believing John still loves a former CIA assassin, (he and Sherlock both find killing justified in some circumstances) but I have a hard time believing he'll stay with someone who shot Sherlock Holmes, and with the suggestion that John is more upset at being lied to about Mary's past (which he partly blamed Sherlock for) than about the shooting.

But it occur to me that there's been a "trading of favors" between Mary and Sherlock: Mary promised Sherlock she would convince John to forgive in TEH (though I'm not sure there that her influence made the difference.) And then in HLV, Sherlock convinces John to forgive Mary.

 

February 24, 2014 6:34 am  #44


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Willow wrote:

Wholocked

I doubt that many people can understand what motivates people who kill for money; Moftiss made quite sure that there is no get out route along the lines of 'she did it for her country', or 'she did it because she was attacked'. They deliberately made her someone alien to most of us; I can imagine myself killing someone for a number of reasons, but I can't imagine that.

I thought she worked for the CIA...which would mean she was paid by them but also that, theoretically, she would be in the service of the US government and interests, which would be aligned with the UK. I know the CIA is different from the military but there are similarities in method and purpose, and they were both in Afghanistan fighting al Queda...remember the big story about the CIA agent killed soon we went into Afghanistan following 9/11?
.
And Mary also tells us the kinds of people she killed were people like Magnussen.

But she also says that John wouldn´t love her if he knew what she had done, what made me think it wasn´t actually all noble "dealing with the devil" / "dragonslayer"-stuff.

Still one of Sherlock´s first intuituions about her (I hesitate to call them "deductions") is "guardian", so maybe there is some kind of backstory here. After all the "freelance" and "so many dead bodies" come from Magnussen, we don´t really know what it means and if he was even telling the truth or playing on John´s and Sherlock´s feelings. Maybe the evidents on the memory stick had proven her to be not as bad as we were made to think. I´m really wary about her, and inclined to hate her because "she put a bullet in my boy and I turn absolutely monstrous" http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
, but then Sherlock is my main concern, it is only natural that he isn´t hers. We love him and tend to see Mary´s actions in this light, but maybe she is guarding someone else she loves at all costs (I mean apart from John´s sentiments, maybe there is a child or family left in a vulnerable position who would be endangered by her exposure - CAMs wedding telegram might be a hint in that direction). 

So I think my point is I don´t trust her as far as I can throw, but I´m also aware that my notions about her are biased and we miss substantial data to make a final conclusion - she might surprise us in the end.
 

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 24, 2014 7:58 am)

 

February 24, 2014 8:01 am  #45


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

She didn't just work for the CIA, though - the implication was that she'd gone rogue and was now on the run.
In fact it seems she maybe did some bad things, and then got a conscience and wanted out of that life.
Which makes me think that she'll now be presented as a character we should love .
I can't get past the brutality of what she did to Sherlock and why, though, and no amount of people offering up dubious things that Sherlock has done and saying that it was similar behaviour will convince me that there's any reasonable explanation for putting a bullet into someone in case they tell your Husband about you.
I'll say it again - Sherlock sometimes works in dubious ways but it's always to help others.
Mary did an awful thing to help herself.

So my take on it all at the moment is that the writers gave us someone who was a brilliant, loveable,
Intelligent character for two episodes, and then midway through the last episode they turned her into an unlikeable charicature.
I think they did a disservice to both the character and the Actress in the way they went about it.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 24, 2014 8:09 am  #46


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Tinks wrote:

I think they did a disservice to both the character and the Actress in the way they went about it.

It´s a little OT, but I really felt a bit bad for Amanda when I watched some interviews.. it seems she really gets a lot of hatred and is not happy about how things turned out. I don´t know if we can blame the writers though, I wish people would be able to distinguish fiction from reality..http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png

 

February 24, 2014 8:21 am  #47


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I feel the fandom is splitted here.
The ones that feel the character is greatly written and multilayered and there still is a hell to discover. I am more along the lines that she was just too much of everything and had to fill every need that just had to be served. I don't want her planted into my head. This is not about Johnlock, though I really love the boys that way and think society would be ready for that, in a really decent way though...
This is about overrunning the two leads with perfectness, and that is a killer for me. Introduce decent background characters, fine. But never change a winning team.
Marylock? Maryjohnlock?? Maryjohnbabylock??? No, just no.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 24, 2014 8:23 am  #48


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Tinks wrote:

So my take on it all at the moment is that the writers gave us someone who was a brilliant, loveable,
Intelligent character for two episodes, and then midway through the last episode they turned her into an unlikeable charicature.
I think they did a disservice to both the character and the Actress in the way they went about it.

Coming back to my thoughts posted in this thread - this is exactly what IMO they did not. To me she is not completely lovable in episode 1 and 2. This is the reason that made me go through these episodes and look at what she really does and says. There are small hints throughout the episodes that there may be something more to her than what we see. 


 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

February 24, 2014 8:27 am  #49


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

We still don't know what Mary did and why she did what she did. Magnussen portrays it as particularly bad, but he relishes in stuff like that and is deliberately trying to bait John and Sherlock. The only thing we know for sure that she feels guilty about it - very guilty. And that she stopped being an assassin and tried to lead a normal life long before she even meet John. She had at least one other relationship beforehand with a guy who look very similar to John, so apparently she has a type.

I disagree that the writers presumably don't show any signs of affection between those two. It's not in the face, but it is clearly there. Mary silently comforting John at the grave. Their playful banter. The way the two understand each other. Again she comforting him during the wedding. Her insisting to go along when John storms the drug den, staying close enough that she might be able to act on his behalf if necessary, but also trusting that he is able to handle himself. All the times she risks revealing herself to Sherlock, but doing nevertheless whatever necessary to help John.

I don't see her love as selfish, clinging or whatever. She loves. She has a secret she doesn't want her husband to know. And she does whatever necessary to hide said secret. If she really were that uncaring about John's feeling she had shot Sherlock point blank. But she didn't. Because she likes Sherlock, and she loves John. There is nothing complicated about all this.

I think we just have to put her (and the actions of every other character) in a different scale. When they make a mistake, the result is much much worse and the action more questionable than with normal people. But that's how the show works. And naturally Sherlock forgives her. Because he also made his share of mistakes in the past, even some which weren't made to protect John, but which involved doing something to John because he considered the case more important. And John forgave him. Again and again. Because that's how John is. So why shouldn't he forgive the woman he loves and who loves him? Loves him so much that she would stick around, even though the smart action would have been packing up, fleeing the country and starting a new life elsewhere the moment CAM approached her.

From a writing perspective: Mary in the first two episode was nice. But she was also a little bit too perfect. Mary in the third episode is perfect, exactly because she is so flawed. The same way John, Sherlock, Mycroft aso are all perfect because they are flawed. They make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes result in people dying. But that doesn't mean that the nice Mary of the first two episode didn't exist. She was just so much more than that.

 

February 24, 2014 8:30 am  #50


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

mrshouse wrote:

 Maryjohnbabylock??? No, just no.

http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
 Nicely said. I fully agree with that.
I think we don't have to fear Maryjohnbabylock because it won't happen. Mary alone is problematic but when you add the baby it won't work imo.
I suppose that we get a nice plot twist and Mary and the baby are out of the picture. Gone to heaven or beekeeping in Sussex or whatnot. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cute.png

 

 

February 24, 2014 8:34 am  #51


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

OOOHHHH yes, Be!!!
And a last scene something along the lines of the boys talking about never parting again, because it just is no good, some cow eyes at each other and a close up of their entangled hands.......
Sorry, got a bit carried away...this is not the thread...


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 24, 2014 8:35 am  #52


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

@Zatoichi  What I pieced together from various interviews is that Amanda got threats from fanatic fans before the season even aired. Naturally neither she nor Martin was happy about this. She also revealed that she didn't knew what would happen in episode three, so I really doubt that there is any subtext in the two episodes other than the hints the writers dropped. They deliberately didn't tell her so that she would play the character in a way that we would see her the same way John and Sherlock saw her, as loving and normal woman with the ability to deal with John's lifestyle. And Amanda said that she was very happy to play something more interesting in the third episode, because there aren't many roles like this for female actresses. So I guess she was happy how the season turned out, but not happy about the fanatic fans.

 

February 24, 2014 8:39 am  #53


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Swanpride

Of course she is flawed. They do no one-dimensional characters which is one of the attractions of the show. 
But as I said before, I tried to look at what is there. And I miss her saying only once that she cares for John. That she does not want him to suffer. But we only hear that she does not want him to know about her past because he then would not love her anymore. For me this is an expression of selfishness. We are told again and again that she loves him but we never ever hear it coming from her own mouth. Honestly, even Sherlock manages to say he loves John in front of a whole wedding party, something we never expected him to do. 
Of course not everybody is prone to express their feelings verbally but then we have Mary's actions as well. I do not want to repeat what has been said in so many threads but shooting Sherlock, then threatening him again when he has just come back from being clinically dead and then again being willing to kill him at Leinster Gardens - sorry, but this is not an expression of love to me. 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 24, 2014 8:40 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

February 24, 2014 8:40 am  #54


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I don't agree that Mary feels guilty about what she did in the past. She said that people like Magnussen should be killed and that why people like her exist. She justifies the assassinations. It implys that she would do it again and that she might continue to do so in case it would be necessary.

 

February 24, 2014 8:43 am  #55


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

This is another thing which bothers me about the current discussion about Mary: There is what she did, and there is what the writers will do with her character. Those are two different discussions, because we don't know what will happen to her.

 

February 24, 2014 8:44 am  #56


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Agreed. And this is exactly why I tried in this thread to stick to the facts and not to speculate about things we may or may not see in the future. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

February 24, 2014 8:44 am  #57


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Quite true, swanpride. We don't know.
But the question is: is it still possible to go ANYWHERE with her? In my opinion no. The situation is a bit in a corner right now.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 24, 2014 8:45 am  #58


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

@Be And Sherlock apparently agrees with her. I don't think that Mary feels guilty about killing when it happens for the right reasons (neither does John or Sherlock), but that she killed someone, deliberately or accidentally, for the wrong reasons. And this is what she feels guilty about.

 

February 24, 2014 8:49 am  #59


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

We don't know it, but there is still that something she ran away from; the information John should not read in front of Mary. We got a lot of loose ends and a lot of hints under the surface. IMO Sherlock had a reason why he helped Mary the way he did. It can be something that is connected to the other something above.

 

February 24, 2014 8:54 am  #60


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Swanpride wrote:

@Be And Sherlock apparently agrees with her. I don't think that Mary feels guilty about killing when it happens for the right reasons (neither does John or Sherlock), but that she killed someone, deliberately or accidentally, for the wrong reasons. And this is what she feels guilty about.

Where do you see guilt?

 

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