BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Who loves who more? (As far as appearences go.)

MahnSherlolly03 · February 22, 2014 2:59 am

Between John and Sherlock, I mean.

When I was watching Series One and Two, I would have said John loved Sherlock more. Sherlock rejects the idea of love, and seems to be fairly sucessful about not letting his obsession with John take over. He makes little comments like 'How often are you away', and he doesn't say a lot that indicates he's interested in John as a person. John, however, asks questions about Sherlock, and he has high expectations for him, and is very hurt when they are not met.

Regardless of who loves more, John's pain hurts me immensely, while Sherlock's pain is a little bit less obvious. It takes centre stage at the end of TRF, however, for me at least.

And then from there on, it seems that Sherlock is actually actively more in love with John than John is in love with him. (In love meaning whatever you want it to.)

This has a little bit to do with Mary, a little bit to do with John's anger, and a little bit to do with Sherlock's growth, I speculate.

But it seems painfully obvious to me that Sherlock is lost in John and is desperate to escape the pain without abandoning the relationship itself. Meanwhile, John, who still does love Sherlock dearly, is a bit preoccupied. Add to that the fact that John is more optimistic about the survival of the relationship, and boom, you have a pair of friends who are not on common footing, which makes for a painfully pining Sherlock and a somewhat oblivious John, almost the opposite of what we saw in previous series.

saturnR · February 22, 2014 4:06 am

Who has more to lose if the relationship were to suddenly end? Whoever you put in answer to this question is the one that will love the other more.

There is such a thing as unconditional love but it is usually shared between parents & children; since Johnlock are not parents/child relationship then their love is probably NOT unconditional.

MahnSherlolly03 · February 22, 2014 4:12 am

saturnR wrote:
Who has more to lose if the relationship were to suddenly end? Whoever you put in answer to this question is the one that will love the other more.

There is such a thing as unconditional love but it is usually shared between parents & children; since Johnlock are not parents/child relationship then their love is probably NOT unconditional.

The way I see it, Sherlock is the obvious answer to your question, especially since John's got Mary + baby.

I think I can agree with that statement. Halfway. I expect there are things Sherlock could do to get rid of John, but as long as John is John, I expect Sherlock will love him, no matter what he does.

SpiralStaircase · February 23, 2014 1:17 pm

The way I've always seen it, Sherlock definitely cares for John more.

I think initially John was intrigued by Sherlock and admired him, but I think Sherlock was emotionally attached to John from day one. He is brilliant at deducing people, and I think he immediately saw something special about John. That their friendship was going to work.

I think that throughout series 3, deep down, John is still very angry with Sherlock and I don't think the emotional scars will ever heal or not for a loooong time. I don't think Sherlock realised just how much he hurt John until the end, which is why he shot CAM. It was the ultimate 'I want to show you just how sorry I am, so I will stop this bastard from destroying your life even if this action destroys my life.'

I've never been a Johnlock shipper, I just see them as really good friends. I think John loves Sherlock as a friend, but Sherlock loves John more intensely, like a brother, like they share the same blood, if you know what I mean.

MahnSherlolly03 · February 23, 2014 1:25 pm

SpiralStaircase wrote:
The way I've always seen it, Sherlock definitely cares for John more.

I think initially John was intrigued by Sherlock and admired him, but I think Sherlock was emotionally attached to John from day one. He is brilliant at deducing people, and I think he immediately saw something special about John. That their friendship was going to work.

I think that throughout series 3, deep down, John is still very angry with Sherlock and I don't think the emotional scars will ever heal or not for a loooong time. I don't think Sherlock realised just how much he hurt John until the end, which is why he shot CAM. It was the ultimate 'I want to show you just how sorry I am, so I will stop this bastard from destroying your life even if this action destroys my life.'

I've never been a Johnlock shipper, I just see them as really good friends. I think John loves Sherlock as a friend, but Sherlock loves John more intensely, like a brother, like they share the same blood, if you know what I mean.

Thanks for the tears.

but everything you said was perfect and i think you're right.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 23, 2014 1:41 pm

Sherlock perhaps underestimates how much John likes him. He thinks for John it's all about danger and adrenaline and the adventures they go through together. And that's partly true. But he doesn't understand that John also likes him as a person. In TEH Sherlock confronts John with the bomb as if that could be enough to convince John to stay with Sherlock. It works, but probably more because John sees the desperation in that, not because he wants to face death all the time, I think.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (February 23, 2014 1:41 pm)

Tinks · February 23, 2014 2:19 pm

I think they both save each other and both need each other in equal measure.
I also think that neither of them understands how much they mean to the other.

besleybean · February 23, 2014 2:57 pm

I think John gets a good idea at the end of His Last Vow.
He must know that's all for him...the shooting, I mean.

Last edited by besleybean (February 23, 2014 5:19 pm)

Willow · February 23, 2014 4:31 pm

Well, no. I think it's reasonable to accept that Sherlock shot CAM for a number of reasons, including the threat posed to John, but even S3 John isn't egotistical enough to believe that Sherlock would do murder for him. Admittedly, the John of S3 did some pretty stupid things, but he cannot have completely lost his marbles.

Fillyjonk · February 23, 2014 11:37 pm

It's a great question. At the end of S3, I'd have to go with "Sherlock." He is helpless to defend himself now that he recognizes that he cares; he has undone himself. Willingly.

If we consider Redbeard and are expected to believe that Mycroft is referencing the first (and possibly last?) time Sherlock allowed himself to care deeply, then Sherlock has learned through hard experience that caring is not an advantage. But he has also seen that it's not a choice he gets to make - he cares for John (evidenced clearly in TGG) and that is a fact of his life now. It maybe took until the hiatus for him to realize how important John's presence is.

John, meanwhile, seems to never have stopped caring for people; caring for Sherlock is just an extension of his normal, everyday, neuroypical human experience. Losing Sherlock was incredibly painful, but didn't stop him from falling in love with Mary. I think John has a broader sense that he has loved in the past and will love in the future.

Sherlock though... I'm not sure he believes he'll ever have another friend if he loses John. And I think he might be right about that, given his life history. So, if John is his one true friend, then John must be infinitely precious. It seems to me that maybe having fewer loves means that the ones Sherlock does have are felt more keenly.

Fillyjonk

MahnSherlolly03 · February 24, 2014 12:45 am

Fillyjonk wrote:
It's a great question. At the end of S3, I'd have to go with "Sherlock." He is helpless to defend himself now that he recognizes that he cares; he has undone himself. Willingly.

If we consider Redbeard and are expected to believe that Mycroft is referencing the first (and possibly last?) time Sherlock allowed himself to care deeply, then Sherlock has learned through hard experience that caring is not an advantage. But he has also seen that it's not a choice he gets to make - he cares for John (evidenced clearly in TGG) and that is a fact of his life now. It maybe took until the hiatus for him to realize how important John's presence is.

John, meanwhile, seems to never have stopped caring for people; caring for Sherlock is just an extension of his normal, everyday, neuroypical human experience. Losing Sherlock was incredibly painful, but didn't stop him from falling in love with Mary. I think John has a broader sense that he has loved in the past and will love in the future.

Sherlock though... I'm not sure he believes he'll ever have another friend if he loses John. And I think he might be right about that, given his life history. So, if John is his one true friend, then John must be infinitely precious. It seems to me that maybe having fewer loves means that the ones Sherlock does have are felt more keenly.

Fillyjonk

^this.

QuiteExtraordinary · February 24, 2014 6:57 pm

Fillyjonk wrote:
It's a great question. At the end of S3, I'd have to go with "Sherlock." He is helpless to defend himself now that he recognizes that he cares; he has undone himself. Willingly.

If we consider Redbeard and are expected to believe that Mycroft is referencing the first (and possibly last?) time Sherlock allowed himself to care deeply, then Sherlock has learned through hard experience that caring is not an advantage. But he has also seen that it's not a choice he gets to make - he cares for John (evidenced clearly in TGG) and that is a fact of his life now. It maybe took until the hiatus for him to realize how important John's presence is.

John, meanwhile, seems to never have stopped caring for people; caring for Sherlock is just an extension of his normal, everyday, neuroypical human experience. Losing Sherlock was incredibly painful, but didn't stop him from falling in love with Mary. I think John has a broader sense that he has loved in the past and will love in the future.

Sherlock though... I'm not sure he believes he'll ever have another friend if he loses John. And I think he might be right about that, given his life history. So, if John is his one true friend, then John must be infinitely precious. It seems to me that maybe having fewer loves means that the ones Sherlock does have are felt more keenly.

I like this very much. I'm not quite sure if Redbeard was the only being Sherlock ever cared about. And Sherlock does have other friends now - Molly, Lestrade, Mary (okay, that's questionable), even Anderson, and a couple of others. He also gets along better with Mycroft. But John was the key to all that, he made it possible for Sherlock to realise that "friends protect people". I think if he ever loses John, Sherlock will stop believing that, and he'll go back to "alone protects me" (this partly happened in the beginning of HLV, as I saw it, and it wasn't good). He managed the hiatus without John, but always with the chance of coming back in mind.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (February 24, 2014 6:58 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · February 24, 2014 8:27 pm

Going with Sherlock. Because he's willing to put John's happiness above his own.

dexter.lei · March 2, 2014 12:27 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Going with Sherlock. Because he's willing to put John's happiness above his own.

True love~

besleybean · March 2, 2014 8:28 am

And a love with full focus.
John undoubtedly loves Sherlock, but he's distracted by Mary.

Last edited by besleybean (March 2, 2014 8:29 am)

MahnSherlolly03 · March 3, 2014 2:04 am

besleybean wrote:
And a love with full focus.
John undoubtedly loves Sherlock, but he's distracted by Mary.

This.

Morton · March 15, 2014 2:33 am

I'm not sure. John loved an 'annoying dickhead' unconditionally and was ready to kill and die for Sherlock in TGG. To me they've done a reverse image in the mirror where John is now repressing his emotions the same as Sherlock did. Sherlock has done the same thing in being ready to kill or die to save John but with his emotions being on the surface he probably feels it with a brighter flame..

Aytoun · March 25, 2014 12:25 pm

Morton wrote:
I'm not sure. John loved an 'annoying dickhead' unconditionally and was ready to kill and die for Sherlock in TGG. To me they've done a reverse image in the mirror where John is now repressing his emotions the same as Sherlock did. Sherlock has done the same thing in being ready to kill or die to save John but with his emotions being on the surface he probably feels it with a brighter flame..

I agree with this completely.

besleybean · March 25, 2014 5:37 pm

I completely disagree.
At the Pool, John was definitely willing to die for Sherlock.

TheWomanWoman · March 25, 2014 7:23 pm

...or was he willing to die for the mankind? Moriarty had to be stopped.