BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



February 23, 2014 1:32 pm  #41


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Personally, I am convinced this was definitely not „surgery“ but murder attempt on Mary′s side.
 
And actually, I am not at all surprised that Mary was revealed as an assassin in HLV. Because if you think about it, there was something off about her from the very start. Canonical ACD Mary Morstan was not that close to Sherlock Holmes yet she treated him with respect and in deference to his abilities. BBC Mary, on the other hand, treated Sherlock as if he was some kind of their family dog, there was generally not a shred of respect for him in her demeanor. When she barked at him „solve it!“ in TSOT, to me it sounded like „sit!“ or „fetch!“ - not exactly a friendly behaviour. She maybe liked Sherlock like you tolerate your pet, but she didn′t give me impression she would mind if he disappeared from her life completely. So it made absolute sense to me when she shot him – suddenly it was clear she was his enemy all the time and that explained her previous strange disregard of Sherlock.
 
Under that mask of fake friendliness she probably feared him like hell. Just imagine being at her place – your boyfriend proposes you, you are sure you can settle down with him and escape your dark past, when unexpectedly that creepy man (who should be dead for two years) pops out of nowhere and inserts himself into your life like some annoying limpet. And he is not only your rival who takes half of John′s heart from you – he is also the most observant man of this world and a detective on top of all that. From that moment it is not just a possibility but a certainty that he will reveal the truth about you very soon.
 
What a luck for Mary that Sherlock was completely sidetracked by John′s violent hysterics that evening and didn′t pay that much attention to her. She was also extremely clever to offer her help to Sherlock, acting like his supporter. If she tried to separate him from John immediately, she would arouse his suspicion much sooner. In that manner she was able to neutralise that danger for some time, yet Sherlock surely was a thorn in her side all along. As was revealed via his mind palace, subconciously he was always aware that she is a liar, he was just momentarily blinded by her apparent frienship.
 
So when he gave her the reason to get rid of him by walking on her in CAM′s office she shot him without much remorse and she aimed to kill.
 
As to why she chose to shoot him into his chest rather than the head – even as an experienced assassin she still could be seen by somebody when leaving CAM′s office and her presence there or her deed could still be revealed to John. In that case she could pretend she just panicked and shot Sherlock accidentaly with no intent to kill him. Headshot would reveal her as a cold-blooded murderer immediately. She was protecting herself not saving Sherlock when she decided to pierce his liver not his head with a bullet. She probably called an ambulance for similar reasons (if she called it at all). And by wounding Sherlock mortally but not killing him on the spot she also bound John to his side, so that John remained with him in CAM′s office and didn′t pursue her.
 
Sherlock′s allegations that Mary saved his life and that she „performed surgery“ on him are deliberate lies. Sherlock knows all too well that Mary intended to kill him: every vision he has in his mind palace and every person inhabiting his inner world assure him that he will die (and he dies indeed). While in hospital he has scary visions about her and she even threatens him in person: „Sherlock, don′t tell John...“ Every single thing tells him that Mary will try again and finish him off, this time for real.
 
It is for his own safety as well as John′s when he reveals Mary′s true face in Leicester Gardens to John. She has no further reason to make attempt on his life anymore if John knows the truth. And John is now informed about the danger arising from Mary, thus being able to see her for what she really is and defend himself if necessary.
 
Sherlock then deliberately shields Mary by claiming that she saved his life. By that deed he gives John a chance to decide if he wants to continue his marrige, but he is not influencing him with the fact that his wife shot his best friend. He probably also feels some pity for Mary who stupidly alienated him when it would be wiser to ask for his help.  
 
(Personally, I think writers used the plot of canonical „Adventure of the Second Stain“ here. Lady Hilda, a heroine of that story, stole an important government document from her husband and gave it to the blackmailer because „her husband would stop loving her if he knew about her past“ (some compromising letter). She is abhorrently selfish in this, because the stolen document could cause war with ten thousands victims and its disappearance could also destroy her husbands career. But Lady Hilda apparently sets her own happiness over all that. Holmes finally forces her to give up the document restored from the blackmailer but after that he takes pity on her and sneakily returns the document into her husband′s dispatch box. He then lies to the husband that nothing at all happened and that the document was in husband′s possession all the time. If Holmes told him the truth he would irreparably damage his marriage and probably end his career anyway. Sherlock however, althrough he appears cold and calculating, is much more compasionate than people generally think.)
 

Hear, hear. :-) Nice comment. 

I enjoyed this post too and it makes perfect sense apart from one aspect.

If Sherlock knew that Mary had tried to kill him, that she really was that dangerous and would stop at nothing to get what she wanted, why the hell would he allow his best friend to stay with her?
 

My answer to that would be that John loves her and Sherlock believes that Mary loves John and would never hurt him.
In Sherlock's mind it's not about what she did to him - that doesn't matter. It's about John being made to be happy again with his wife and child, and not suffering loss again.
I don't believe for one moment that he'd have persuaded John to stay with her if he though she was a danger to John.
 


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 23, 2014 2:22 pm  #42


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Ok yeah, I can buy that. She's not a threat to John because she does genuinely love him.

She seems genuinely nice to Sherlock at the end of the ep though...that confused me a little. Maybe it's because she is grateful for everything Sherlock has done for her and feels like she owes him now.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

http://9.asset.soup.io/asset/1715/0057_6c7d.gif
     Thread Starter
 

February 23, 2014 2:33 pm  #43


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Ok yeah, I can buy that. She's not a threat to John because she does genuinely love him.

She seems genuinely nice to Sherlock at the end of the ep though...that confused me a little. Maybe it's because she is grateful for everything Sherlock has done for her and feels like she owes him now.

 
Well if that's the case that she's grateful, and if she's going to be a regular feature with no further mention made of her having nearly killed Sherlock, then that's the best I'll hope for - that she'll be warmer to him in future.
At the time I thought she was being nice to him because she'd never have to see him again, though!


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 23, 2014 2:36 pm  #44


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Sorry, but no. She was not nice, her smile dropped The second she turned from him after The goodbye. Just kept up facade, because she probably supposed him to leave them for good and forever. Didn't  care much about John being sad again.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 23, 2014 2:54 pm  #45


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Maybe she's genuinely sad and just putting on a brave face for both John and Sherlock.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 23, 2014 3:08 pm  #46


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Mary can't win, can she? I bet if she had kept smiling, the complain would be "look how happy she is that she gets rid of Sherlock, the ungrateful egoist".

I think that Mary genuinely likes Sherlock. But she loves John. So much that she wasn't ready to risk "breaking" him by revealing her secret. In her mind John learning the truth would have been the worst possible outcome and Sherlock dying only the second worst. The best would have been that he agreed to keep her secret. But there was no time to talk to him with John lurking just around the corner. From the clinical perspective that "breaking" and loosing John would be worse than Sherlock dying, the "I shoot him but do my very best that he survives" option was the better one.

 

February 23, 2014 3:10 pm  #47


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

A bit like Sherlock shooting CAM, knowing it meant a life sentence for him and hardly ever seeing John again.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 23, 2014 3:23 pm  #48


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Plus, there has been a lot of talk about how Mary being pregnant figured into John's decision to forgive her - but what about Mary? How many of her decisions were based on the wish to protect her baby? To ensure that it will be born in a family with father and mother and save from CAM?

 

February 23, 2014 4:03 pm  #49


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I mean this is the nicest possible way - and again it's discomfort with what the writers did with Mary that's my main problem here - but the excuse of it being the only way to keep John, or not wanting to be a single Parent, will never make me swallow the fact that she shot and almost killed his best friend!
Not even in TV land can I find that excusable.
Had Sherlock been planning to kill one of them, then fair enough.
But because he might land her in the divorce court? No, I'm sorry - it just doesn't do it for me.

Last edited by Tinks (February 23, 2014 4:04 pm)


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 23, 2014 4:17 pm  #50


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Tinks wrote:

I mean this is the nicest possible way - and again it's discomfort with what the writers did with Mary that's my main problem here - but the excuse of it being the only way to keep John, or not wanting to be a single Parent, will never make me swallow the fact that she shot and almost killed his best friend!
Not even in TV land can I find that excusable.
Had Sherlock been planning to kill one of them, then fair enough.
But because he might land her in the divorce court? No, I'm sorry - it just doesn't do it for me.

Wouldn't need the divorce court; the marriage wasn't legally valid.

I have no doubt that Mary is obsessed by John, but I don't think obsession is the same thing as love; almost the first words she says to Sherlock in TEH are about how his apparent death had almost destroyed John, and yet she's prepared to do it for real.

And she was preparing to take out CAM long before she realised she was pregnant, hence cosying up to Janine; that has nothing to do with Sherlock...
 

 

February 23, 2014 4:45 pm  #51


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

If Mary's actions are forgivable is a different issue, though. Let's put it this way: Mycroft sit by while Sherlock was tortured. Can we conclude now that he hates Sherlock and wants him dead? Sherlock used John for an experiment without his permission. Can we conclude now that he only keeps him around because he is a good test subject?

Mary shooting Sherlock does not automatically mean that she hates him, either. It just means that she was ready to risk his life because she considered her marriage to John more important.

Personally I don't think that Mycroft was right not acting earlier when Sherlock was tortured. Or Sherlock was right when he used John for his experiment. I can follow their reasoning, but I don't agree with it. The same is true for Mary. She made the wrong call, on so many levels. But that doesn't mean that she isn't a caring woman, too. Just like Mrs. Hudson helped to run a drug cartel and is nevertheless a nice person.

 

February 23, 2014 5:17 pm  #52


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

She only did the typing!
Tee Hee.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 23, 2014 6:04 pm  #53


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be  clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 23, 2014 6:06 pm  #54


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

In the great scheme of things Mary being a caring person, or not a caring person, is irrelevant; I doubt that Moftiss intend to have her hanging around for much longer because in the end she's dull. There's nothing behind the facade beyond the 'I want', and 'I want' gets old really, really quickly, so there will be one more twist and then exit.

Which is just as well because otherwise it would cease to be Sherlock...

 

February 23, 2014 6:07 pm  #55


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I confess I originally thought the wedding may be the end of season 3...but no, I like the way they did it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 23, 2014 6:47 pm  #56


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

mrshouse wrote:

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be  clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.

They Mary Sued her; I suspect that Moftiss know only too well that Mary Sues don't actually exist, and would have assumed that their audiences do too. Some of us were waiting for the second shoe to drop; I agree that the soft focus shots with the soft focus hairstyle and the vintage style dress were entirely calculated to invoke the sentimental reaction which was then blown to pieces in HLV.

But as I keep pointing out, the real gut punch isn't Mary shooting Sherlock; it's John not noticing that his best friend is bleeding out while he throws a hissy fit. They turned the whole relationship on its head in that scene, and somehow they have to walk back from that, if only to establish the John Watson of canon.

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I think I'm going to read some canon to cheer myself up
 

 

February 23, 2014 6:50 pm  #57


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Great idea, willow! No third one between our boys in there, not seriously, but great supporters ( incl. Mary morstan btw.) might join you.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

February 23, 2014 7:17 pm  #58


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Willow wrote:

mrshouse wrote:

At the moment it is hard for Mary to win, quite true. It is difficult. And I have to agree that it is a lot of the writers doing. Maybe fans don't like her to be planted into the heads as great new lead. Being a bit more careful with her character, a bit more slowly in introducing and showing her around, a supporting cast, well, who knows? And I have a feeling she had to fill in, what was needed by hand: John still grieving? Great, let's make her loveable, soft and sweet looking with her gorgeous 20style dress, soft blond waves, camera pictures all softened during Sherlock's first deductions. But she has to be funny and smart, too!! And weirdo Sherlock? Great, let's make them good friends! But she must be clever, too! (" solve it!"). But wait, now John gets bored! Great, lets make her an ex assasin, should do for an adrenalin junkie!!! There are johnlockers still hoping? Get her lots of screen time!
it's a pity. I could do with her as a great supporting cast in the back ground. I think it was all too much too soon.

They Mary Sued her; I suspect that Moftiss know only too well that Mary Sues don't actually exist, and would have assumed that their audiences do too. Some of us were waiting for the second shoe to drop; I agree that the soft focus shots with the soft focus hairstyle and the vintage style dress were entirely calculated to invoke the sentimental reaction which was then blown to pieces in HLV.

But as I keep pointing out, the real gut punch isn't Mary shooting Sherlock; it's John not noticing that his best friend is bleeding out while he throws a hissy fit. They turned the whole relationship on its head in that scene, and somehow they have to walk back from that, if only to establish the John Watson of canon.

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I think I'm going to read some canon to cheer myself up
 

Great comment, and I hear you. I had to go watch a Millenium Marathon to cheer myself up, last night. Oy Flipping Vey!

Gut punch. Yeah, that about sums it up. :-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 23, 2014 7:17 pm)

 

February 23, 2014 7:54 pm  #59


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Willow wrote:

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I really hope that happens in S4! Coming from canon I feel that´s the way their relationship is supposed to be, the only way that feels natural and will work over time. Watching this parent-child-thing going on between the Watsons and Sherlock in TSoT was horrible for me, it felt so against everything I associated with Holmes.. 

If HLV is the way Moftiss chose to reach that point "it was worth the wound", to quote canon..
 

 

February 23, 2014 9:17 pm  #60


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Zatoichi wrote:

Willow wrote:

Of course, in canon, Sherlock is the grown up; it may be that HLV is the way Moftiss have chosen to reach that point. Now all they have to do is give us the John Watson who would walk off a cliff if Sherlock asked him to, trusting Sherlock absolutely to know what's best.

I really hope that happens in S4! Coming from canon I feel that´s the way their relationship is supposed to be, the only way that feels natural and will work over time. Watching this parent-child-thing going on between the Watsons and Sherlock in TSoT was horrible for me, it felt so against everything I associated with Holmes.. 

If HLV is the way Moftiss chose to reach that point "it was worth the wound", to quote canon..
 

 
I must confess that I really didn't like that in TSoT either; it's yet another of the illusions which is shattered in HLV. Mothers don't, on the whole, shoot their children, even if they want to and when Mary pulls the trigger that's gone.

Moftiss have set up opposing views of what family is, and I think we can reasonably deduce that they prefer the warmth which is so much a feature of the Holmes' home to the cold, almost sterile atmosphere of John's place in the suburbs; the person who dressed that set obviously had very clear guidance from the writers and director, and it is, to say the least, uninviting.

But I do think that S3 could be fairly characterised as the season where Sherlock grew up; in some ways it's painful, but growing up usually is. The task for S4 is to get John to do some of the same, even though we know that he will remain a sucker for a pretty face and a sob story, as he does in canon; John is always going to be naive.

But to paraphrase Lestrade on Sherlock, if we're lucky he will become the John Watson we love in canon; he will have to make some headway on that if he's going to persuade Mycroft that he is not a liability who needs to be kept a long way away from his brother...

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum