BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



February 21, 2014 8:44 pm  #1


Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I've just been thinking about this tonight when I rewatched the ep, purely based on Mary's reaction when she arrives at the hospital and John tells her that Sherlock has pulled through. She actually looks kind of surprised, as if she expected him to die, and then slightly worried when he says that Sherlock's first word was 'Mary'.

Then, in Leinster Gardens when Sherlock explains that sentiment got in the way and she chose exactly where to shoot him knowing it would keep him alive, she remained expressionless, not giving anything away. I just wasn't sure whether to believe her or not.

But then, I suppose, she did call the police. Or did she? Could have been Magnussen who called them. He had reasons to keep Sherlock alive.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

http://9.asset.soup.io/asset/1715/0057_6c7d.gif
 

February 21, 2014 8:50 pm  #2


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Also, not to mention the moment where she gets out the gun in Leinster Gardens when Sherlock asks her how good a shot she is and says "how badly do you want to find out?" insinuating that she's going to shoot him...to the point where Sherlock has to point out why that's not a very good idea.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

http://9.asset.soup.io/asset/1715/0057_6c7d.gif
     Thread Starter
 

February 21, 2014 9:00 pm  #3


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I have thought about this, too, and quite a long time and I think that Sherlock wants John to stay with Mary for certain reasons. This is his plan behind the whole Baker Street scene. I am not sure why she hesitated to shoot him in the head but any shot in the chest might be fatal. You can hit major blood vessels and/or the liver even if you avoid the heart. There have been lots of medical discussions about this. 
She was willing to take the chance of killing him and she killed him indeed. It might be possible that Sherlock lies about her phone call to the police and she of course does not protest because she wants to keep John. I am not sure if CAM was able to phone for an ambulance after the hit to the head. Then again the ambulance arrives quite soon after John's call. 
But her reaction in the hospital and what is more IMO, her threatening tone when she orders him not to tell John show that she was at least willing to kill him. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 21, 2014 9:01 pm  #4


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I half expected her to put a pillow over his head when he was lying in the hospital bed....


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

http://9.asset.soup.io/asset/1715/0057_6c7d.gif
     Thread Starter
 

February 21, 2014 9:02 pm  #5


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I would not have been surprised. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 21, 2014 9:06 pm  #6


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

To me it seemed like 'I like you and I really don't want to kill you, but don't think I will hesitate to do it if you don't coorperate'.


--------------------------------
http://25.media.tumblr.com/bc09e50c5e891b4ddace196f1395a264/tumblr_mz38vdPwKL1rxzdxqo3_500.png

"Yes, of course I forgive you."
 

February 21, 2014 9:13 pm  #7


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

That is quite to the point, Lily. She does hesitate but not enough to ensure his survival. And she would have comforted John if Sherlock had died while being relieved at the same time. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

February 21, 2014 9:48 pm  #8


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I said it before, but I repeat it: We have to remember that everything Mary does until Sherlock reveals that it was surgery is deliberately kept ambiguous and open for interpretation. Maybe Mary was worried because Sherlock was still alive. Or she was worried because he wasn't suppose to nearly die and she had to think of a way to speak with him before he talked to John. Maybe she really would have killed Sherlock. Or she does some posturing in order to keep him quiet.

What we do know for sure is that if she had wanted to, she could have killed Sherlock easily. We also know for sure that she was the only one who could phone the ambulance before John because Magnussen just regained consciousness when John stormed into the room. (Plus, why should he let John place the call a second time?). So she shot him in a place which was not a safe kill-shot and then immediately phoned the ambulance. Only logical conclusion: She wanted him to life.

 

February 21, 2014 10:21 pm  #9


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

It wasn't a safe 'survival-shot', either - as we have seen. He died. If she had wanted him to live, she would have placed the shot somewhere else. But we've been over this several times now, so...


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"
http://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

February 21, 2014 10:23 pm  #10


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

SolarSystem wrote:

But we've been over this several times now, so...

Haha. I'm sure we'll be over it several times more before we get Series 4...THIS IS WHAT MOFFAT WANTS.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.

Independent OSAJ Affiliate

http://9.asset.soup.io/asset/1715/0057_6c7d.gif
     Thread Starter
 

February 21, 2014 10:25 pm  #11


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

You're right.
But just to say, she did have to injure him enough to incapacitate him and distract John.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 22, 2014 12:23 am  #12


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

besleybean wrote:

You're right.
But just to say, she did have to injure him enough to incapacitate him and distract John.

Only if you accept that it is morally permissible to gravely risk Sherlock's life in pursuit of what she wanted; that is a very large proviso, and one which I do not subscribe to.

I can accept her as an example of the sort of twisted and perverted love, which ACD wrote about so much in canon, but ACD didn't ever present this as being in any way admirable. Sherlock's prescription for the boy who, driven by obsessive and jealous love for his father, and hatred for his stepmother, tried  to murder his young half brother in the Sussex Vampire case, so that he alone could have all his father's love, was to send him off to sea for a year.

I wonder what the Moftiss equivalent would be 
 

 

February 22, 2014 4:12 am  #13


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

I don't understand in Sherlock's explanation where he explains why Mary knew CAM wouldn't go to the police. I don't get his reasoning. Is it that CAM would just collect this incident & add it to his blackmail goodies list or is it something else?

 

February 22, 2014 4:35 am  #14


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

saturnR wrote:

I don't understand in Sherlock's explanation where he explains why Mary knew CAM wouldn't go to the police. I don't get his reasoning. Is it that CAM would just collect this incident & add it to his blackmail goodies list or is it something else?

 
Heaven only knows; in reality CAM would have picked up the phone and have her taken out by one of her numerous enemies. After all, he'd been pistol whipped and watched her shooting Sherlock in the central mass; no one in their right minds leaves someone like that in play!.

 

February 22, 2014 4:40 am  #15


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

This is the best Meta I've seen on the subject of Mary and her motives...
http://archiveofourown.org/works/1219021

Penitence, Paradox and Psychopathy: Why Mary is A Bit Not Good, By TheConsultingActor.

This author breaks it down. Very compelling. 
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 22, 2014 4:41 am)

 

February 22, 2014 7:16 am  #16


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Interesting Q poster, and some interesting answers.

I don't think Mary cared if Sherlock lived or died, she could work both outcomes.
Her short term goals were to appease Magnusson and silence Sherlock and leave.
Had Sherlock died she would tell Magnusson whoops didn't mean to kill him , had Sherlock lived he would be scared/threatened into silence.

Marys actions and character are superficially similar to Sherlocks on the surface, but almost directly opposites underneath.
Her killings are/were unjustified, her character is faked, her motives are selfish, Mary is the true sociopath , not Sherlock.
She took the code to Sherlock to make him hunt for John , knowing Magnusson was testing Sherlock and knowing he had John, the bonfire plot was carefully and exactly planned by Magnusson.  It does not make sense that he did not order Mary to take the code to Sherlock and ensure the hunt for John.
Mary is all about Mary, which leads me to wonder as to her motives with John and Magnusson...and thinking there must be more to it, and that Sherlock plays a long game.

When Sherlock says it was "surgery" he means it because in a way it was.
The decision was like a surgeons must be..cold..clinical and emotionless.

Last edited by lil (February 22, 2014 7:20 am)

 

February 22, 2014 9:11 am  #17


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

You know, this episode had three pretty earth shattering scenes:
Mary shooting Sherlock, and his battle to live in the Mind Palace.
John finding out about Mary and *that* scene at Baker Street.
Sherlock killing CAM and the haunting scene when the shooters are trained on him.

Three breathtaking moments of TV, but buried underneath them was a story which didn't really make a whole heap of sense - for reasons many of us have gone over, many times: so much was left uncovered and the question is: did they think they'd get away with the plot not really standing up BECAUSE everyone would be too absorbed in those moments of drama to notice the holes?
Or is this a "to be continued (in two years time!)" type of story where everything we think we know will be turned on it's head when it returns?
To stick to the topic of the thread  - no way on earth do I buy Mary's shot being "surgery" and it worries me that the writers would expect us to accept that, when it was so devastating, and also, it worries me that they've had Sherlock convince himself, and John, of it too.
I'd go so far as to say I find it a bit disturbing, for reasons too lengthy to go into right now.
So I hope as far as that part of the story goes that they're not really expecting us to believe that Mary somehow "knew" that Sherlock would pull through, or that she "saved his life" when it was as plain as day that he saved his own life!

Last edited by Tinks (February 22, 2014 9:13 am)


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 22, 2014 9:22 am  #18


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

It's not a good article - to paraphrase Sherlock himself, the writer had a solution that he liked (Mary is eeeeeeeevil) so he ignored all the evidence to the contrary.

It's pretty simple, really: If Mary were really a sociopath (meaning unable to love), would she bother to stick around? Wouldn't she just cut her losses the moment CAM turned up? Hell, wouldn't she make sure to vanish the moment she realizes that John is closely connected to Mycroft?

Mary is convinced that the truth will break John. It turns out that she is wrong, but I can understand why she would think that. Never mind that in all this not just she but also the unborn baby is to consider.

 

February 22, 2014 9:42 am  #19


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Another way of trying to justify Mary's not-really-but-somehow-after-all kill shot is to consider that CAM was in the room and witnessed it. Mary didn't expect for Sherlock to catch her in the act. She only had seconds to decide what to do. I'm thinking she couldn't just shoot Sherlock in the shoulder or leg or wherever else more harmless because she wanted CAM to think she was a ruthless, calculating killer and wouldn't stop at (as good as) executing her husband's best friend. Granted, CAM heard her apologizing to Sherlock before she fired the shot, but she still fired.

As to why she would want to do so, I'm not exactly sure. From her point of view, CAM had leverage on her she wanted eliminated, and she would want CAM to think she's dangerous enough to kill someone to achieve her goals--even if this didn't exactly result in her ultimate goal, which was to get conrol over the files CAM has on her. If she'd merely shot Sherlock in an extremity, CAM would have thought her weak. Another pressure point to add to her file.

And in terms of Sherlock saying Mary's aim was "surgery", well, I'm sure that was just a pretty word they used to illustrate Mary's decision not to go for the forehead shot. If I wanted to be really pedantic, I guess I could try to argue now that she'd know where exactly the major blood vessels in the liver area are located, and she chose an exact spot where she wouldn't hit any of them. But, well, that would be a little too precise, wouldn't it?


___________________________________________
"Oh please. Killing me, that's so two years ago."
DominionFans.com

 
 

February 22, 2014 10:02 am  #20


Re: Was Mary trying to kill Sherlock, or was it really "surgery"?

Swanpride wrote:

It's not a good article - to paraphrase Sherlock himself, the writer had a solution that he liked (Mary is eeeeeeeevil) so he ignored all the evidence to the contrary.

It's pretty simple, really: If Mary were really a sociopath (meaning unable to love), would she bother to stick around? Wouldn't she just cut her losses the moment CAM turned up? Hell, wouldn't she make sure to vanish the moment she realizes that John is closely connected to Mycroft?

Mary is convinced that the truth will break John. It turns out that she is wrong, but I can understand why she would think that. Never mind that in all this not just she but also the unborn baby is to consider.

The author didn't say she's a sociopath but a psychopath and had some valid points in my opinion.
Following his reasoning there is no wonder why she sticks around, she's possesive. That is what it felt for me like the very first moment she grabbed John#s hand at the graveyard.
I almost choke at having to buy it was all for the good of john.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum