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August 13, 2014 5:39 am  #21


Re: The wedding guests

A TV wedding in particular!


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August 13, 2014 8:45 am  #22


Re: The wedding guests

A lovely light wrote:

If we consider that both John and Mary work, that John is a doctor, he should win comfortably to live in a bigger apartment, have a car and a quite expensive wedding. 

I tried to count how many guests are, but i am rubbish at stopping a movie when it counts. I got 7 tables with 8, 9 people on each plus the 5(?) on the main table. This is actually not so much if you think that many people come with someone and not alone (poor Lestrade).

I was also surpraised to see only Sholto visibly from his army days. The most guests seem also to be Mary's guests, not his. Apart from the spoken cousin in 221b , we don't get any of John's family. He really looks lonely. Probably because he doesn't trust people and that makes difficult to him to have loads of friends. You also lose friends and aquintance when you are depressed.

I wish we would get more to know about John's past to understand him better. For me he is more difficult to read and a greater puzzle than Sherlock (to whom i can better relate in a way and we get also much more information through his relationship with Mycroft and his parents, but also through his aquintance, who are first his - Lestrade, Molly, Ms. Hudson, Anderson ...)
 

Yes!  I feel we only have little bits and pieces of information about John's background.   One thing I wondered in another thread is why he chose to do GP training, when it doesn't seem something that suits him - as a doctor, there were more exciting fields he could have gone into.   Now that you mention it, it's odd that there's only one person (Sholto) there, from all his years in the services. 

GPs are well paid, so yes, he could afford a big wedding (I think Mary works part-time so would have been struggling financially, but she may have had money put aside. I don't know her background).   It just isn't what I'd have imagined for him and Mary.  If I'd had to guess, I'd have thought they'd have a small, less formal, registry office do, with just the people close to them, especially as they didn't have much family there.  Nobody to give Mary away, for instance. 

I know they have to get married (unlike Martin and Amanda!), because they get married in the books, but there was a choice by the people making the series to make it a showy wedding.   What I'm wondering is whether this is meant to say something about the characters (why did John and Mary choose this sort of wedding?), or whether it's really just because it looks good and to fit with the story.  The colours and lighting are gorgeous, although it seems to me that it's Sherlock who is being lit beautifully, rather than the bride!   And of course, they needed a lot of guests and a photographer for it not to be instantly obvious who the potential murderer and victim is!  

 

August 13, 2014 8:55 am  #23


Re: The wedding guests

Yes, I think one point was to have a big wedding because they had better opportunities for the case itself and of course it looks nicer than a simple ceremony at the registry office. As for the costs of the wedding - I am not sure about a GP's income in the UK but the wedding and even more the house they are living in seems to me quite costly. As there are no parents involved, we can assume they paid for all that themselves.
Mary works as a nurse in a doctor's office, in Germany a typical women's job, i.e. not very well paid. And I assume that John did not start working as a doctor until at least some months after the fall because he was not able to work. Before he met Sherlock he did not even have enough money to rent his own flat. So how do they afford this lifestyle?
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 13, 2014 11:09 am  #24


Re: The wedding guests

Yes, how do they afford it?  What GPs earn is quite variable - practices can be run rather like businesses.  Basic pay is about £50,000 - £80,000 which is quite a decent salary in the UK (although not enough to be rich).   I'm not sure if there would be London weighting (it's common that jobs in London pay a little more to help make up for the costs of living there).  Sherlock thinks Mary is a part-time nurse.  Full-time salary might be around £30,000, so she's likely to be on about £20,000 - below average for the UK.  Possible London weighting again.  However, she actually seems to be working as a receptionist when we see her, so would be earning less - possibly £15,000?  (I don't think the practice would employ a receptionist on a practice nurse's salary, but it's possible that the scene that shows her as a receptionist is just a misunderstanding of a nurse's role - a mistake.  Or possibly the practice have some odd triage system where the practice nurse gives a provisional diagnosis then ushers them into the doctor? I'm overthinking).

I'd have thought John would have some money from the army after retiring, but he seems to be broke (he asks to borrow money from Sherlock).   They get a huge payout in the second episode from the bank job.  I'm not sure how huge, or how long it lasted.  John wears quite expensive clothes, but could have owned them before.  Renting in London is very expensive.  They may have bought that flat, but would probably have needed a deposit - I'm guessing that they're renting for now. 

The average wedding cost is about £18,000 apparently.  Most people I know haven't paid that much, so the figure is maybe skewed by a few really expensive ones.  But John and Mary's definitely was not a cheap affair.  However, most of it could have been bought on credit and paid off later, so they wouldn't necessarily have needed savings.

But I don't think they would have got a big wedding on credit, and I'll tell you why.   Mary's pregnant.  It could have been an accident.  But John's a GP - contraception is one of his areas.  Mary's a practice nurse  - again, contraception is one of her fields of expertise.   They would likely have chosen one of the very reliable, long-acting methods of contraception, IF they were trying to avoid pregnancy.  Obviously, they haven't as Mary is pregnant.  They're not trying to avoid pregnancy - i.e. they're trying for a baby.  Some people do get married around the time they want a family, so that makes sense.   But with no savings and renting in London, I don't think they'd want to get in debt over a wedding, not if they're planning to have a child. 

So the expensive wedding is a bit of a puzzle.  Maybe Mary had a large amount of savings and spent some of them on the wedding?  It's about the only explanation.  After all, she's choosing to work part-time, so maybe doesn't need money?

Last edited by Liberty (August 13, 2014 11:12 am)

 

August 13, 2014 11:22 am  #25


Re: The wedding guests

Or she has a secret stash from her past. I supposed the assassin jobs paid quite well. 

As for the pregnancy: This is tricky. I cannot believe they tried for a baby. Look at their faces when Sherlock reveals his deduction. This is not positive a shock, especially not in Mary's case. This is not the face of a woman who deliberately wanted to get pregnant und who is just surprised to hear it from her husband's best friend before realising so herself. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 13, 2014 11:24 am  #26


Re: The wedding guests

Yeah, maybe her free-lance jobs were very well paid http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/devious.png
.

 

August 13, 2014 11:30 am  #27


Re: The wedding guests

I think so. My idea is that she can afford the flat/house because of money saved from her past and John was too depressed to find something nice for himself. So he was happy to move in with her. Pure speculation but look at the colourful wallpaper - it would be more Mary's style than his, I suppose. The same goes for the white bed linen with the little pearly things on it we see at the beginning of HLV. 

Last edited by SusiGo (August 13, 2014 11:30 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 13, 2014 11:48 am  #28


Re: The wedding guests

It couldn't really be secret from John, though, could it?  He would wonder how the wedding had been paid for.  But if her parents were dead (are they?  I wasn't sure), it wouldn't be unusual for her to have a bit of inheritance, and that could be what she tells him.   Or maybe she really does have some inheritance.  (And by the way, I haven't watched HLV yet, so might be missing something). 

I agree that they look suprised about the pregnancy.   But of course, they might not have been expecting it yet.  It usually takes quite a while to get pregnant, and they were rather obsessed with all the wedding preparations.  But another clue is that they are instantly pleased about it - Mary has a big smile right away (unless I'm misreading that), then they are flustered, then both smiling and pleased.  If they'd been actively trying not to get pregnant ... well, it wouldn't be good news on first hearing.  

However, it does take Mary a while to realise what Sherlock is talking about, so maybe not.  I'm not 100% sure about this scene, but their occupations do suggest that they knew what they were doing on the family planning front. 

(Of course, in real life, people react in all sorts of different ways, and not the way you'd expect - but in this programme, they are more reliable and things are easier to deduce!). 

Last edited by Liberty (August 13, 2014 11:50 am)

 

August 13, 2014 11:58 am  #29


Re: The wedding guests

Liberty, I can't understand why you still haven't watched HLV. Is there a special reason for it?
When you finally will have watched it, maybe you will have an idea how Mary could pay for an expensive wedding like this.
 


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
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August 13, 2014 11:59 am  #30


Re: The wedding guests

Please let me ask you something - have you any idea of what happens in HLV? I really do not understand how you can discuss all this without the full knowledge of all episodes. Apart from the fact that we are posting constantly what must be terrible spoilers for you. There is a storytelling arc, a development throughout the episodes and you should know them all in order to draw conclusions. Of course you are free to discuss them now but I think it would be better to watch them all, especially with regard to but not limited to Mary's part in this series. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 13, 2014 12:26 pm  #31


Re: The wedding guests

Liberty wrote:

But another clue is that they are instantly pleased about it - Mary has a big smile right away (unless I'm misreading that), then they are flustered, then both smiling and pleased. 

I don't know. I made some screenshots of that scene:

Mary at first when she slowly gets the idea:

http://up.picr.de/19201812py.jpg

 
This, when she finally understands:

http://up.picr.de/19201810hr.jpg


But then there are these reactions:

http://up.picr.de/19201811qr.jpg


http://up.picr.de/19201809js.jpg


Doesn't look really pleased to me. They are only smiling again when Sherlock makes the "baby-joke".
The last two pictures to me rather look as if something really terrible has happened.

Last edited by Mattlocked (August 13, 2014 12:29 pm)


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 13, 2014 12:36 pm  #32


Re: The wedding guests

I agree, Mattlocked, this revelation doesn't seem to be a happy one for them. At least not exclusively. And I suppose for different reasons.

As for the money Mary might or might not have from her previous 'occupation': She would somehow have to explain to John why she has so much money, being an orphan and working as a nurse. Would he believe that she somehow saved up a lot of money over the years? Well, maybe he would, there are other things about her he didn't see, either. And well, I guess she is skilled enough to come up with a convincing story, right? Liar and all that... 


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"Am I the current King of England?"
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"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

August 13, 2014 1:01 pm  #33


Re: The wedding guests

Well, I came to the series late, just a couple of months ago, and right from the first episode I knew that I wanted to take my time with the series and not watch the episodes back to back.  I feel I need to time to digest each one before moving on to the next.  I also just wanted to prolong the wonderful experience.  It has been quite difficult actually holding back and not watching - it's so tempting! 

I have tried to avoid spoilers by avoiding the parts of the forum that are for episodes I haven't watched yet.  But as you can imagine, spoilers are impossible to avoid - and actually, I don't think spoilers spoil things that much.   It's still going to be a great experience watching it.  Yes, I know Mary is an assassin because it has come up in other posts, but I don't know how it's revealed, or her motivation or how other people react to it, or how much they know or anything like that.  I've come across what I'm sure are other major, major spoilers too (I think I know who shoots whom and who kills whom), but again, I don't know the details.

I know I'm at a disadvantage and that you all will be more knowledgeable than me.  But I've felt a compulsion to discuss the episodes as I watch them!  I feel like I can't just leave it all to the end and talk about it with full knowledge.  I apologise for the gaps in my knowledge though - and thank you for bearing with me.  http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


So anyway, I was assuming that John didn't know about Mary's past so she would need a reason to have the money (an inheritance).  But of course, I don't really know what John knows.  It just seems odd that she would come up with all this money out of the blue and nobody would wonder?  Or that John wouldn't maybe want to wait and save up his share?

Thank you for the screencaps, Mattlocked.  Yes, I do think the revelation of the pregnancy is ambiguous as you watch it - there's what seems to be the genuine smile from Mary and then John is more concerned about not picking up on it (but then why would he be expected to pick up on it before Mary?  As far as we know, Mary only mentioned the change in taste to Sherlock.  It makes me wonder if he thought they should be looking out for signs - i.e. they know it's a possiblity).   When I first watched the scene, I thought it was a complete surprise and that they thought they were "safe", but putting the pieces together (especially their occupations, and that it's not "bad" news).

Another slight clue, possibly, is that Sherlock seems to think they want a baby - he lets it slip that he's going to be there for all three of them, so he's assuming that they're going to continue with the pregnancy.  There often seems to be a little more behind his deductions than just the cold facts. 

Last edited by Liberty (August 13, 2014 1:14 pm)

 

August 13, 2014 1:10 pm  #34


Re: The wedding guests

He does not know about her past and money is never mentioned. It was just something that struck me because he was never particularly well off before. And as I said, it would have taken him some time to return to medical work, depressed as he was. Moreoever, he had not worked as a doctor for quite some time. We do not see him at work again after TBB. (Of course in the fanfics Mycroft usually helps out but there is no hint at such a thing in the series)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 13, 2014 1:10 pm  #35


Re: The wedding guests

I would be afraid that everything I've read so far in here (all the spoilers you've just written of, even if you don't know the details) would spoil the fun watching HLV. The surprises are gone, no matter if you know details or not.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

August 13, 2014 1:24 pm  #36


Re: The wedding guests

That's true, but I've accepted that I'm watching something that was aired some time ago.   The alternative would be to not to read or discuss anything until I've watched the whole thing, and to be honest some of it is "spoiled" anyway (I've read some of the ACD stories, and I've seen things in the press - the TRF was all over the place after it was aired, so I knew the ending all along).   I wouldn't like to actually read the script, but knowing some plot points doesn't actually spoil the experience (interesting article hereon whether spoilers spoil).  It's interesting to see how the characters get to that point.  I also have some brand new episodes to look forward to in the distant future, so will finally get the full experience!

 

August 13, 2014 1:40 pm  #37


Re: The wedding guests

I see your point. But I would not want to miss the experience of watching HLV for the first time. There were scenes where it seemed I did not breathe for minutes. And I am sure that it would not have been like that had I known the things you know. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 13, 2014 4:31 pm  #38


Re: The wedding guests

Actually, psychologists have done studies that indicate that people enjoy books more when they know the endings, even if they believe they won't, and I believe they have gotten the same results with the visual arts. I would never spoil for people who don't want to be spoiled, but I personally ALWAYS want to be spoiled--I'm one of those people who have been reading the ends of books first from childhood, and it's never ruined a good book or show for me. (And it saves me time on the bad ones!) So I don't think Liberty will be missing anything by knowing some of the plot points of HLV ahead of time.

If it comes to that, everyone who read the ACD canon knew the end of TRF and the beginning of TEH more than a hundred years before it was even written!


____________________

"Oh, you meant 'spectacularly ignorant' in a NICE way."
 

August 13, 2014 4:41 pm  #39


Re: The wedding guests

REReader wrote:

Actually, psychologists have done studies that indicate that people enjoy books more when they know the endings, even if they believe they won't, and I believe they have gotten the same results with the visual arts. I would never spoil for people who don't want to be spoiled, but I personally ALWAYS want to be spoiled--I'm one of those people who have been reading the ends of books first from childhood, and it's never ruined a good book or show for me. (And it saves me time on the bad ones!) So I don't think Liberty will be missing anything by knowing some of the plot points of HLV ahead of time.

If it comes to that, everyone who read the ACD canon knew the end of TRF and the beginning of TEH more than a hundred years before it was even written!

Oh yes, that´s true for me too, I already knew what was going to happen because I came to the forum before I got my DVD and I still enjoyed it very much. Watching HLV was still a very thrilling experience.. I like to be prepared for what´s coming. S4 will be nerve-wrecking.. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/stoned.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

 

 

August 13, 2014 5:28 pm  #40


Re: The wedding guests

We in Germany, must live under a rock to don't read spoilers till we have aired on our TV.  (I also read the end of the book when i am still not through the half of the book http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cool.png
). 

I think in the pic with Mary, she thinks about the telegramm from CAM and feels the danger. Perhaps John thinks how his times walking around with Sherlock is quite to the end. 

 

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