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February 15, 2014 2:52 am  #1


The wedding guests

Given that the series has emphasized the aloneness of all of the main characters...how come so many people at the wedding?

We were told it was "thin on Mary's side," which implies that John had more people to invite than she did. Now, with John, we get some mixed messages about his social life: we hear about his "friends" (plural), but we've heard they hate him.

But at Sherlock's grave he said, "I was so alone." 

And many of the obvious ones - including his own sister and the one other friends we knew about before Sherlock, weren't there.

In many shows, particularly comedies, the reverse happens: we get several plotlines throughout the series about friends or relatives visiting, and then in the wedding episode...they're not there.

 

February 15, 2014 3:29 am  #2


Re: The wedding guests

I noticed that too!  Awfully big crowd, wasn't it? 
To a certain extent, they kind of had to fill the room a little, or it would have been even more noticeable how empty it was.  TV for you.  But beyond that, I also got the sense that Mary's side was sparse, but even after she escaped/left/retired her old line of work, she still could've made some new friends and contacts.  Just no family. 

John, on the other hand… it is interesting the 'closest' other contacts of his we know about (Harry and Mike) didn't show.  But he could've had plenty of friends from when he was a soldier that, even if not particularly still close, would have come to his wedding (hey, Sholto did).  And maybe friends he made through his work or going out with Mary, after Sherlock left.  The 'they hate him' part you mentioned we only hear Sherlock say in the mini-episode… and for all we know, Sherlock could have been mistaken, or misjudged their hate for annoyance at Sherlock.  Plus the 'I was so alone' is kind of loaded with meaning for me, too.  I take it as he was so alone, before Sherlock came along and changed things for him and 'got' him.  He could have had other friends, we know he had other family, but still felt so alone because he couldn't turn to any of them after being invalided home.


Oh, and something else occurred to me… of course some of those guests would have brought a date, too, right?  Instant surplus. 

Last edited by Russell (February 15, 2014 3:33 am)


_________________________________________________________________________

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February 15, 2014 8:12 am  #3


Re: The wedding guests

Just on John's sister - I wondered if she'd died?
During his speech, Sherlock says that John has had his share if tragedy and the says "sorry again about that latest one." I didn't know if this was supposed to be a reference to his Sister, since she wasn't there, or mentioned.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 15, 2014 9:45 am  #4


Re: The wedding guests

But she was mentioned. At the beginning of the wedding, just before Sholto arrived, Mary asked John about Harry and he told her that she won't come and that this is probably for the best because of the free drinks at the wedding. So, she is not dead and we can still hope that we might see her one day  .


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"What place?"
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February 15, 2014 9:53 am  #5


Re: The wedding guests

Completely missed that!!!!
Thanks for responding, and putting me right


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 15, 2014 6:08 pm  #6


Re: The wedding guests

"So sorry about that last one", I see that as Sherlock trying to make a joke of his own 'death'... 

But yes, I did wonder how so many people were there... maybe some of them were friends of John and Mary's friends? Who were kind enough to show up... I don't know all that much about weddings and British weddings especially. But can't you make 'plus one' invitations. That would surely double the crowd. 


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February 15, 2014 8:11 pm  #7


Re: The wedding guests

And it struck me that John invited the "Sherlock entourage" people (Molly, Mrs. Hudson, Lestrade, Mycroft). Now, granted he had a relationship with Mrs. Hudson, too, and working at St. Bart's he may genuinely like Molly in his own right. Lestrade I'm less sure about since John, as a doctor, probably wouldn't know Lestrade very well if he wasn't involved in Sherlock's crime-solving.

But John and Mycroft are hardly chummy. So his being invited sort of plays to the theme that it was Sherlock's wedding, too. Or in a more platonic sense, it's kind of like, "If he's Sherlock's brother, he's my family."

Yes, I would say the "last lost" Sherlock referred to was his own "death." I guess it's POSSIBLE the "John's friends hate him" thing was Sherlock's misguided attempt to be funny in the way guy friends are funny about each other.

     Thread Starter
 

February 15, 2014 10:17 pm  #8


Re: The wedding guests

It's not that unusual....

Rule for a polite wedding: Either invite only the closest family or invite everyone. Otherwise there will be only hurt feelings. John and Mary apparently went for everyone. (Believe it or not, when you plan a wedding it can happen that suddenly people start to hint that they want to get invited too, even if you only know them in passing).

Rule for a successful wedding: Make sure that everybody has contact to someone. It's not such a bad idea to invite someone you yourself are not that close to anymore, but who is close to someone who will be there but has not a lot of connections to your other friends. This way they have at least someone to talk to, even if they are not particularly sociable.

I also guess that Sherlock's friends became somewhat John's friends...after all, Molly, Mrs Hudson and Lestrade were also the ones invited for Christmas.

 

February 18, 2014 1:10 am  #9


Re: The wedding guests

It is possible to have a lot of people in your life, but still feel isolated and alone.  John lived for a while before meeting Sherlock. They mentioned cousins.  There were also people he probably knew from school, Medical school, work and his time in the Army.  Many of them could have been living away from London or been very busy.  Heck, between work and married life, John barely has any contact with Sherlock the first month after the wedding.  I have several friends and family members that I'm on hugging terms with, but between work and other things I just don't see them very often.  When John came home from the war several of his friends were probably busy with work and raising families.  Life happens.


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Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

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August 10, 2014 12:04 am  #10


Re: The wedding guests

I thought just the same thing - who were all these people? I was also disappointed that Harry wasn't there.  I was looking forward to "meeting" her!

In fact, it was surpising that it was such a big, expensive church wedding.   And all the fussing about invitations and so on seemed out of character for all of them, somehow.  (Well, of course there had to be fancy invitations with full names on for the plot, and a big enough wedding for the plot and so on). 

 

August 10, 2014 4:30 pm  #11


Re: The wedding guests

When is considered a weeding big or small in UK? I lived in two cultures, in one under 100 guests is a small wedding (and if you live in a village you might need to invite half of the neighbourhood) , for the other having 60 guests was a normal one. 

 

August 10, 2014 4:58 pm  #12


Re: The wedding guests

I always wondered the same. Some of the men look like night club bouncers or bodyguards. 

And what struck me about series 3 as a whole - John seems more lonelier and isolated than Sherlock. Sherlock has a complete family with parents and brother who care for him even if the relationship is not very close. John on the other hand only has a sister from whom he is estranged and who we never meet (so far). We know nothing about other siblings or his parents. He does not seem to be acquainted with any of the guests but the usual suspects plus Sholto. As for his friends Sherlock mentions in "Many Happy Returns" - who are these friends? I can only think of Mike and Greg, nobody else. And remember his words at the grave: "I was so alone." And I cannot imagine him meeting lots of people while mourning Sherlock.  

Last edited by SusiGo (August 10, 2014 5:00 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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August 12, 2014 7:14 am  #13


Re: The wedding guests

A lovely light wrote:

When is considered a weeding big or small in UK? I lived in two cultures, in one under 100 guests is a small wedding (and if you live in a village you might need to invite half of the neighbourhood) , for the other having 60 guests was a normal one. 

I don't know what you'd call big or small here!  What seems to be quite common is to have a smaller number of people for the main reception (with the meal), and then a larger number later on.   I thought that there were a lot of people there considering that neither John nor Mary seemed to have close family there, and John didn't seem to have a huge amount of friends.   It certainly looked like an expensive wedding.  The catering must have cost a bomb, for a start, and there was a free bar, expensive flower arrangements everywhere, etc.   Most people don't get married in church, so that must have been showing something about the couple (religion? tradition?) that they chose that over a civil ceremony. 

SusiGo wrote:

I always wondered the same. Some of the men look like night club bouncers or bodyguards. 

And what struck me about series 3 as a whole - John seems more lonelier and isolated than Sherlock. Sherlock has a complete family with parents and brother who care for him even if the relationship is not very close. John on the other hand only has a sister from whom he is estranged and who we never meet (so far). We know nothing about other siblings or his parents. He does not seem to be acquainted with any of the guests but the usual suspects plus Sholto. As for his friends Sherlock mentions in "Many Happy Returns" - who are these friends? I can only think of Mike and Greg, nobody else. And remember his words at the grave: "I was so alone." And I cannot imagine him meeting lots of people while mourning Sherlock.  

Yes, that struck me too.  And apart from Mike (who wasn't there, and hardly seems to feature in John's life) and Sholto (who again, doesn't seem to feature much in John's life outside of the wedding), the "usual suspects" were more connected to Sherlock than John.  LeStrade, Molly and Mrs Hudson are all people John only knows through Sherlock, and Sherlock continues to be closer to them than John is (in my opinion).  Sherlock's parents are lovely and Mycroft is caring, despite the odd relationship.   Although John is the one supposedly teaching Sherlock about human relationships, Sherlock actually seems to be doing pretty well with other people, while John seems more wrapped in Sherlock (and Mary). 

Last edited by Liberty (August 12, 2014 7:15 am)

 

August 12, 2014 7:19 am  #14


Re: The wedding guests

Yes, this is true. And we have to count Mycroft in who was invited but chose not to come. (Interesting point, btw: Why did he not come? Because he knows something about Mary? Because he does not want to see Sherlock getting involved? I think it must be more than just a simple aversion to "mingling").


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

August 12, 2014 7:57 am  #15


Re: The wedding guests

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, this is true. And we have to count Mycroft in who was invited but chose not to come. (Interesting point, btw: Why did he not come? Because he knows something about Mary? Because he does not want to see Sherlock getting involved? I think it must be more than just a simple aversion to "mingling").

Of course, Mycroft had to be first choice when it came to invite family, friends and "others".
I think he was a "victim" for dramaturgical reasons. If he had been written into the wedding then Sherlock could have appeared to be less lonesome and his tremendous departure at the end - the lonely wolf - less impressive. Mycroft surely would not have managed to stand through the whole "do" as well and would have left prematurely - an unwanted situation and equally competition.
 


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
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August 12, 2014 8:11 am  #16


Re: The wedding guests

I thought it was just that Mycroft wouldn't be able to stand it (the whole thing was probably even longer than Les Miserables).  But those other reasons work for me too. 

 

August 12, 2014 8:48 pm  #17


Re: The wedding guests

Liberty wrote:

A lovely light wrote:

When is considered a weeding big or small in UK? I lived in two cultures, in one under 100 guests is a small wedding (and if you live in a village you might need to invite half of the neighbourhood) , for the other having 60 guests was a normal one. 

I don't know what you'd call big or small here!  What seems to be quite common is to have a smaller number of people for the main reception (with the meal), and then a larger number later on.   I thought that there were a lot of people there considering that neither John nor Mary seemed to have close family there, and John didn't seem to have a huge amount of friends.   It certainly looked like an expensive wedding.  The catering must have cost a bomb, for a start, and there was a free bar, expensive flower arrangements everywhere, etc.   Most people don't get married in church, so that must have been showing something about the couple (religion? tradition?) that they chose that over a civil ceremony. 

SusiGo wrote:

I always wondered the same. Some of the men look like night club bouncers or bodyguards. 

And what struck me about series 3 as a whole - John seems more lonelier and isolated than Sherlock. Sherlock has a complete family with parents and brother who care for him even if the relationship is not very close. John on the other hand only has a sister from whom he is estranged and who we never meet (so far). We know nothing about other siblings or his parents. He does not seem to be acquainted with any of the guests but the usual suspects plus Sholto. As for his friends Sherlock mentions in "Many Happy Returns" - who are these friends? I can only think of Mike and Greg, nobody else. And remember his words at the grave: "I was so alone." And I cannot imagine him meeting lots of people while mourning Sherlock.  

Yes, that struck me too.  And apart from Mike (who wasn't there, and hardly seems to feature in John's life) and Sholto (who again, doesn't seem to feature much in John's life outside of the wedding), the "usual suspects" were more connected to Sherlock than John.  LeStrade, Molly and Mrs Hudson are all people John only knows through Sherlock, and Sherlock continues to be closer to them than John is (in my opinion).  Sherlock's parents are lovely and Mycroft is caring, despite the odd relationship.   Although John is the one supposedly teaching Sherlock about human relationships, Sherlock actually seems to be doing pretty well with other people, while John seems more wrapped in Sherlock (and Mary). 

If we consider that both John and Mary work, that John is a doctor, he should win comfortably to live in a bigger apartment, have a car and a quite expensive wedding. 

I tried to count how many guests are, but i am rubbish at stopping a movie when it counts. I got 7 tables with 8, 9 people on each plus the 5(?) on the main table. This is actually not so much if you think that many people come with someone and not alone (poor Lestrade).

I was also surpraised to see only Sholto visibly from his army days. The most guests seem also to be Mary's guests, not his. Apart from the spoken cousin in 221b , we don't get any of John's family. He really looks lonely. Probably because he doesn't trust people and that makes difficult to him to have loads of friends. You also lose friends and aquintance when you are depressed.

I wish we would get more to know about John's past to understand him better. For me he is more difficult to read and a greater puzzle than Sherlock (to whom i can better relate in a way and we get also much more information through his relationship with Mycroft and his parents, but also through his aquintance, who are first his - Lestrade, Molly, Ms. Hudson, Anderson ...)


 

 

August 12, 2014 8:56 pm  #18


Re: The wedding guests

90 percent of the wedding guests in my opinion are mere decoration and filling material.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
http://up.picr.de/25572077rl.jpg



                                                                                                                  
 

August 12, 2014 8:58 pm  #19


Re: The wedding guests

I wouldn't expect any different.


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August 12, 2014 10:49 pm  #20


Re: The wedding guests

In this particular wedding or in all weddings?

I wonder if the writers of the shows didn't wanted to show that to us. They put the light on some friends (and ex-friends) of Mary, but only the ex-commander of John, which is also unsociable like Sherlock. 

 

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