BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



March 15, 2014 1:27 am  #21


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

The side of the angels is, as I understand it to mean, the side of justice. It's ACD canon that Holmes favours justice not the legal system when that is completely ineffective at securing a conviction due to a lack of tangible evidence. .


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We solve crimes, I blog about it and he forgets his pants, so I wouldn’t hold out too much hope. (Scandal in Belgravia)

I asked you for one more miracle. I asked you to stop being dead..........I heard you.(The Empty Hearse)
 

March 15, 2014 8:23 am  #22


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

I both understand that and agree.
But I remain unhappy with the summary execution.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 15, 2014 9:01 pm  #23


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

besleybean wrote:

I'm finding it a tad difficult to even imagine when murdering an unarmed man in cold blood, could ever be described as ' on the side of the angels'- whatever that ridiculous expression means.

I think Sherlock agrees with you; that's why he accepted the suicide mission.
 

 

March 15, 2014 9:02 pm  #24


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Well Sherlock knew what would happen to him, but felt John's peace of mind was worth it..


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 16, 2014 1:52 am  #25


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

besleybean wrote:

I both understand that and agree.
But I remain unhappy with the summary execution.

I agree, I'm not happy with it either. To me the writing in of that was just to mirror that John shot the poisonous cabbie to save Sherlock. I think we would both have written something different. It's not Holmes of canon, is it http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/sad.png

 


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We solve crimes, I blog about it and he forgets his pants, so I wouldn’t hold out too much hope. (Scandal in Belgravia)

I asked you for one more miracle. I asked you to stop being dead..........I heard you.(The Empty Hearse)
 

March 16, 2014 8:17 am  #26


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

I couldn't even say that, Morton.
I wouldn't deem to knew Canon better than Mark and Steven and they are certainly better writers than me.
I do know canonically that Sherlock would do anything for John.
My main point has always been that this kind of murder is only ever acceptable in fiction/on the screen.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 16, 2014 9:59 am  #27


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

besleybean wrote:

Well Sherlock knew what would happen to him, but felt John's peace of mind was worth it..

No. I really don't think Sherlock shot CAM because of John. I simply don't accept a reading of Sherlock predicated on the assumption that he would do murder just to give his best friend 'peace of mind'; it's an insult to Sherlock and an insult to John.
 

 

March 16, 2014 10:53 am  #28


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

I disagree.
Though I could agree that it would be 'more laudible' to rid the world of an evil.
I remain uncomfortable.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 16, 2014 11:24 pm  #29


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Concerning CAM, I think it′s clear that it would be impossible to punish him for his despicable blackmail by any legal method.
 
Collecting of evidence against him would be virtually impossible – his victims would never speak about his crimes to a detective. They wouldn′t risk they own secrets being uncovered that way. (That′s exactly why Mary didn′t ask for Sherlock′s help either.) And even if Sherlock did obtain some evidence against CAM, CAM was so politically powerful and so rich at the same time, it would be no problem for him to escape any punishment. He would certrainly be able to corrupt the judges or to influence the trial by the media at his disposal.
 
So the only realistic solution for HLV would be that, in which CAM escapes punishment completely and remains in power, consuming and destroying more human lives.
 
Or the other, which both ACD and Moftiss used – one of CAM′s victims actually snaps and shoots him in retribution or in an attempt to finally stop him. Not a clear and legal solution, surely, but lets face it, the first solution would be a real downer, wouldn′t it?
 

Last edited by nakahara (March 16, 2014 11:45 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

March 17, 2014 6:51 am  #30


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Yes, I think we all understand the issues.
Doesn't alter the fact this only works in a TV show.
This action would be appalling in real life and I honestly would think very badly of Sherlock...
You know what I hate most of all?
He proved Sally right.
I thought he was above that.
It is an entirely different matter to shoot in self defence.
In fact, even John shooting the cabbie was not as bad as this.

Last edited by besleybean (March 17, 2014 6:52 am)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 17, 2014 6:54 am  #31


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

I agree, there´s no neat and legal solution for the threat CAM posed, someone had to get his hands dirty. I´d have preferred another client putting a stop to him with Sherlock and John as witnesses like in canon, but well.. they chose another direction, so I guess (and hope) they have something in mind for the show as they really put Sherlock in this horrible position. I hope it wasn´t just for the shock and the dramatic ending http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
.

But one thing´s for sure, it made me feel with CAMs cornered victims much more than if for example Mary or Lady Smallwood had shot him.. I felt much more involved and it made me think about uncomfortable topics I usually avoid.. like the right way to react to something completely wrong, justice vs. legality, means and confines of self defence.. violence in crisis situations.. not bad for a TV show that´s really fun and entertaining at the same time! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

 

March 17, 2014 7:04 am  #32


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Oh I agree with you.
What concerns me is if some on here have come to the wrong comclusion...that what Sherlock did is perfectly fine.
It isn't.
I would not want to live in a nation where that was state accepted practice.
I do think it's exacerbated if the same people come down hard on Mary.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

March 17, 2014 2:29 pm  #33


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

It would be maybe easier to accept this situation if it was another person shooting CAM (as it was in the original story). But the writers of „Sherlock“ don′t like to involve their heroes in dangerous, morally dubious problems only to have it all solved by some convenient „deus ex machina“ at the end. The story is much more gripping and relevant if the main protagonists must overcame the challenges and trials of the storyline themselves. Therefore it′s understandable that they allowed Sherlock to make that fateful decision and shoot CAM by his own hand.
 
I don′t think that the story tried to convey that such praxis is right. HLV is built like the antic tragedy, in which the strange forces of fate inevitably lead heroes of the story to utter ruin and death, no matter how noble character they possess and what selfless acts they have done.
 
HLV sometimes reminds me of antic play „Antigone“ penned by Sofocles. In the story, young girl Antigone breaks the law and commits high-treason because she buried the body of her fallen brother who sided with the enemy and who attacked her homeland as the chief of enemy warriors. Antigone is rightfully convicted of the crime and killed by being buried alive in the tomb. From the legal point of view, she was undoubtably guilty – she really broke the law and by burying her brother she appeared to approve of his treacherous deeds. But from the human point of view, she was absolutely innocent – it was her very natural, human feeling of sisterly love and compassion that forced her to save the soul of her brother who would be transformed to a vengeful, vagrant ghost without the proper burial.
 
In „Antigone“, the tragedy stems from the inevitable discrepance between an abstract idea of law and justice and the unpredictable twists of actual human life. The idea of justice being administered by the force of law looks good in theory. Still, the unpredictability of human life often proves that law is an inadequate instrument when dealing with our chaotical human existence ruled by mere chance and blind force of fate. Law is only a human construction, it could never cover all the complex problems of human life.
 
So, even if the rule of law is good as it saves us from the injustice of vigilante society where only a strong individual prevails, it is wrong to adulate it. Because there are some situations in life where legal solution is equally unjustified as an actual crime that was being commited.
 
Sherlock′s personal tragedy is similar to Antigone′s. He murdered CAM and by commiting that murder he inevitably broke the law, presumably proving that Sally was right about him. But here we can see the tragical irony of his deed which stems from the fact that it was actually a good side of Sherlock′s character that led him to commit the crime. If he was a cold-blooded psychopath as Sally claimed he is, he wouldn′t hesitate to leave John, Mary and Mycroft to their fates, valuing his own life and well-being above their safety. So Sally was right and wrong about him at the same time. He did commit murder, but not as a psychopath but as a somewhat misguided idealist who was left with no choice to react in another manner.
 
Comparing Sherlock to Mary is not exactly fair, because Mary never acknowledged that she was in any way wrong when assassinating people. But Sherlock values the rule of law even if he was forced to break it - that′s why he accepts the punishment for CAM′s murder. His tragedy is made much deeper by the fact that he didn′t sacrifice only his body and name for his friends – as in TRF – he sacrificed the very principles for which he stood for such a long time, just to save the people whose safety depended on him and his fateful choise.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

March 17, 2014 2:41 pm  #34


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Beautiful argumentation, nakahara. I really like your posts, they always make me think. 
And you are right in comparing HLV to a classic tragedy.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

March 17, 2014 3:11 pm  #35


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Thank you, Suzi, I′m very glad that you enjoyed it! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.png

 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

April 15, 2014 7:53 pm  #36


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

What was Sherlock supposed to do? Reason with the guy? Give hold his hand? Deliever an uplifting pep talk ? That's prolly how us dummm Murkins woulda done it. Music swelling in the background:

Sherlock; "Wait! You can still give your life meaning by giving me the name. Think of your children. How do you want them to remember their daddy?"
Dying Cabby: (gasping) "You're roit, Mr. Olmes. The name is ...."
Sherlock: "Stay with me, don't give up. You can give me the name there's still time."
Music swells. Cut to five minutes of commercials. Return to scene and drag out the Big Reveal for as long as possible.

There's a reason Americans pay money for Brit DVD's.
 

 

April 15, 2014 7:55 pm  #37


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Sherlock should not have committed murder.

Last edited by besleybean (April 15, 2014 9:30 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 15, 2014 9:28 pm  #38


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Sherlock has a dark side. Desperate times/desparate measures. The guy was dying any way. Sherlock didn't shoot him, John did. Sometimes a cockroach is a cockroach. I'm glad Sherlock got the information. Believe me, the nauseating American version I just rattled off above would make blood spout out of your eyes.

At least Sherlock didn't go all Scarface on the poisoner. But it's kind of obvious to walk around with a chainsaw.

 

April 15, 2014 9:32 pm  #39


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Sorry, I was referring to Sherlok shooting CAM.
I don't feel quite so bad about John shooting the cabbie.
Sherlock hurting the cabbie was awful, but I agree...he was dying anyway.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

April 15, 2014 9:46 pm  #40


Re: Was anyone else uncomfortable...

Sorry, besleybean. I didn't mean to be rude. That was a very scary episode. Excellent script, acting, production values etc. That cabby was the creepiest villain ever. I still watch that episode and admire the acting of the guy who played the cabby. That was some really brilliant drama.

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum