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February 3, 2014 7:15 pm  #41


Re: Why we love Mary!

Davina wrote:

I don't necessarily think that a woman with a past as a trained assassin or whatever is necessarily a negative though. It is not a gender specific job. I am not saying I don't like her. I like Black Widow, she has the same kind of back story. Everyone deserves a possibility of redemption surely? The fact that she has left her past behind her (albeit not completely) and has hopefully found a new identity and the possibility of falling in love with John, with a baby on the way is so much more hard-hitting than if she was 'ordinary'.

This is what I was trying to say in (too many words) , I mean-- I'm a huge fan of Hannibal Lecter, love the character. :-) Mary brings a whole lot of interesting moral questions that are a writer's dream to navigate. 

 

February 3, 2014 7:22 pm  #42


Re: Why we love Mary!

I am still under the impression (which is based on absolutely nothing) that they are going to use the backstory of Jack McMurdo from the Valley of Fear for Mary. He's an undercover assassin in a terrorist organisation and he killed people, but he was there to take out the whole group and to arrest the leaders.  So he was a good guy, but he had to kill innocent people in order to roll up the whole group. It makes sense to me that that's where they want to go with her. Whether that's good or bad, people will be divided, I think. 

 

February 3, 2014 7:39 pm  #43


Re: Why we love Mary!

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Here's my question: Does Mary's love for John make Mary's action of  shooting (and killing, at least temporarily) Sherlock, acceptable? In other words, can love be considered an extenuating circumstance, meaning that--once Mary's relationship is threatened, she's is no longer responsible for her actions, shouldn't be held responsible; because she's in in effect,  suffering from temporary insanity?

I will pass my professional opinion here. Since nothing is black and white in psychiatry you would probably be able to find an expert witness willing to say that Mary had no idea what she was doing (particularly if you asked Mycroft to look for one lol). However I think it's unlikely. The way I see it she had a complete insight into her actions and was able to weigh up the consequences. She came up with a perfectly organised plan and was able to modify her actions in a split seconds to adjust for unforseen changes. This is not a way disorganised, psychotic or otherwise severly compromised person operates.

You could o fcourse argue that Mary is a dengerous psychopath with a perfect insight and total disregard for sociatal norms. That would be a very poor line of defence though as it would most likely earn her a very long stay in forensic hospital under section 49 (it applies to patient's that can be discharged only by Ministry of Justice).

Peronally I'm not thrilled by what she did but can see some logic behind her actions. Deffinitely doesn't stop me liking her as a character.

 

February 3, 2014 7:42 pm  #44


Re: Why we love Mary!

Davina wrote:

I don't necessarily think that a woman with a past as a trained assassin or whatever is necessarily a negative though. It is not a gender specific job. I am not saying I don't like her. I like Black Widow, she has the same kind of back story. Everyone deserves a possibility of redemption surely? The fact that she has left her past behind her (albeit not completely) and has hopefully found a new identity and the possibility of falling in love with John, with a baby on the way is so much more hard-hitting than if she was 'ordinary'.

Ditto. I'm really curious to find out more about Mary backstory (although we may never do). What was the reason as to why she became an assasin in first place? Does she has a tragic past like Blackwidow or was it purerly a career choice?

 

February 3, 2014 8:06 pm  #45


Re: Why we love Mary!

belis wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Here's my question: Does Mary's love for John make Mary's action of  shooting (and killing, at least temporarily) Sherlock, acceptable? In other words, can love be considered an extenuating circumstance, meaning that--once Mary's relationship is threatened, she's is no longer responsible for her actions, shouldn't be held responsible; because she's in in effect,  suffering from temporary insanity?

I will pass my professional opinion here. Since nothing is black and white in psychiatry you would probably be able to find an expert witness willing to say that Mary had no idea what she was doing (particularly if you asked Mycroft to look for one lol). However I think it's unlikely. The way I see it she had a complete insight into her actions and was able to weigh up the consequences. She came up with a perfectly organised plan and was able to modify her actions in a split seconds to adjust for unforseen changes. This is not a way disorganised, psychotic or otherwise severly compromised person operates.

You could o fcourse argue that Mary is a dengerous psychopath with a perfect insight and total disregard for sociatal norms. That would be a very poor line of defence though as it would most likely earn her a very long stay in forensic hospital under section 49 (it applies to patient's that can be discharged only by Ministry of Justice).

Peronally I'm not thrilled by what she did but can see some logic behind her actions. Deffinitely doesn't stop me liking her as a character.

Oh, you're the one I really want to talk to! :-) I have been doing a lot of research on Relationship Addiction, and it seems to me that Mary has some tendencies that fall in line with it. I'm looking at the tendency to put The Relationship ahead of everything else, to where it becomes dangerous, or makes it hard for the sufferer to function.   What do you think? It might also change the motive-- suppose the reason Mary shot Sherlock was *also* to eliminate a rival for John's attention? 

I've worked with people dealing with this problem, and they are the ones who stalk love interests on Facebook, check their emails, obess about not getting enough texts, get jealous over family members and friends, (including mothers) will spend thousands of dollars trying to "curse" someone they see as a threat, threaten the love interest with killing themselves, and occasionally get violent with rivals or even the love interest. I've also seen women neglect their children, and even lose custody-- over putting a relationship first. And this usually happens with a partner or love interest that is unavailable in some way. 

When Sherlock comes back into the picture, John is no longer soley Mary's. 

On the other hand, we see her make an subsatntial effort to gain Sherlock's friendship, right? But what I've noticed is that some of the ladies I counsel are very good at "playing the game", they will try to appear to be as "normal" as possible, welcoming to friends, so as to not upset the love interest. Then they obssess and plot and generally make their own lives hell trying to "make the other person love them." 

Sorry, rambling. But it's a thought, and I'm wondering what you think. :-)

 

February 3, 2014 8:27 pm  #46


Re: Why we love Mary!

Honestly, now we call her a stalker, too? 


 

     Thread Starter
 

February 3, 2014 8:38 pm  #47


Re: Why we love Mary!

Swanpride wrote:

Honestly, now we call her a stalker, too? 


 

I didn't say *she* was a stalker, I am saying that a lot of the womenI see who exhibit symptoms of relationship addiction do stalk. I'd worry about what they'd do, if they had Mary's skill set. 

I get it; Mary probably feels that's she's justified in protecting what she never thought she'd have in her life as an assassin/wet work/ specialist. A normal life, a husband, a child. But a lot of my clients also feel this way. That's the parellel I'm seeing, here. It's an ends justify the means sort of mentality. It doesn't mean she's not a great character-- indeed, if the writers were clued in to this, they might actually be able to explore this type of thinking, and repurcussions of it. 

 

February 3, 2014 8:40 pm  #48


Re: Why we love Mary!

Relationship addiction is not a disgnosis that features in ICD-10 or DSM (as yet, watch that space). There are some other slightly related disorders like morbid jelousy and erotomania. I don't think Mary has either.

I'm not sure if she puts the relationship ahead of everything else since before CAM came into picture she was functioing perfecly OK. She didn't display any of the typical behaviours like stalking, obsessing etc

Granted she takes very drastic steps to protect her relationship but that seems in line with her usual personality and way of solving problems. If she was an ordinary housewife who went out to kill someone in order to protect her relationship it would be easier to make a case for a psychiatric condition but not when she is a trained assasin.

I deffinitely don't believe that Mary wanted to get rid of Sherlock becouse she was jealous of him. She didn't seem to have any problem with John running around with Sherlock solving cases, if anything she encouraged that.  I get what you say about her pretending becouse she didn't want to upset John. It's possible but in my head canon she genuinly likes Sherlock. If she wanted to kill him she would have shot him in the head. No questions asked. lol

So my take on it would be that she is very invested in her relationship with John and in protecting her new identity of wife and mother. I'm not sure if I would want to call it an addiction.


 

 

February 3, 2014 8:59 pm  #49


Re: Why we love Mary!

There is also John and her child to consider (I still think that she might have collected information early on, but the need to protect her child caused her to take drastic measures - after all, the attack on Magnusson was not well thought-out, considering that she didn't know where he stored the information about her).

     Thread Starter
 

February 3, 2014 9:01 pm  #50


Re: Why we love Mary!

belis wrote:

Relationship addiction is not a disgnosis that features in ICD-10 or DSM (as yet, watch that space). There are some other slightly related disorders like morbid jelousy and erotomania. I don't think Mary has either.

I'm not sure if she puts the relationship ahead of everything else since before CAM came into picture she was functioing perfecly OK. She didn't display any of the typical behaviours like stalking, obsessing etc

Granted she takes very drastic steps to protect her relationship but that seems in line with her usual personality and way of solving problems. If she was an ordinary housewife who went out to kill someone in order to protect her relationship it would be easier to make a case for a psychiatric condition but not when she is a trained assasin.

I deffinitely don't believe that Mary wanted to get rid of Sherlock becouse she was jealous of him. She didn't seem to have any problem with John running around with Sherlock solving cases, if anything she encouraged that.  I get what you say about her pretending becouse she didn't want to upset John. It's possible but in my head canon she genuinly likes Sherlock. If she wanted to kill him she would have shot him in the head. No questions asked. lol

So my take on it would be that she is very invested in her relationship with John and in protecting her new identity of wife and mother. I'm not sure if I would want to call it an addiction.


 

Makes sense, though for me, the behavior becomes a problem when the person is a danger to themselves or others-- and well, canon speaks for itself. It will very interesting to see how they develop this character. :-)

 

February 3, 2014 9:04 pm  #51


Re: Why we love Mary!

Swanpride wrote:

There is also John and her child to consider (I still think that she might have collected information early on, but the need to protect her child caused her to take drastic measures - after all, the attack on Magnusson was not well thought-out, considering that she didn't know where he stored the information about her).

Yo've just made my point. Panic, then shoot someone. 

 

February 4, 2014 12:53 am  #52


Re: Why we love Mary!

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

There is also John and her child to consider (I still think that she might have collected information early on, but the need to protect her child caused her to take drastic measures - after all, the attack on Magnusson was not well thought-out, considering that she didn't know where he stored the information about her).

Yo've just made my point. Panic, then shoot someone. 

Mary doesn't look as if she was panicking in the moments before she shot Sherlock, though of course we know that she is an accomplished actress so that tells us nothing definitive; she takes the time to establish that John is with Sherlock, having done so she alters her aim to shoot him in the central mass and leaves, knowing that John will stay with Sherlock rather than come straight after her, as he indisputably would if she put a bullet through Sherlock's brain.

We know that Mary had intended to go after CAM before she was aware that she was pregnant; there can be no other reason for her cultivating Janine, and every reason to avoid her. Her encouragement of John spending time with Sherlock is understandable, given that it's hard to plan a successful raid on a blackmailing billionaire with a husband to be and a genius under your feet all the time.

Normal people do not kill other people solely for money; belis has, on the evidence so far, eliminated a psychiatric condition so we are left with psychopath, which would certainly solve Mofftiss problem since she would be detained indefinitely, o

However it is remotely possible that Mary has seen the light, a woman saved by the the 'Love of good man,' , which, frankly, I'm sick of as a plot.  Marlene Dietrich in 'Destry Rides Again' was superb; Mary, not so...
 

 

February 4, 2014 1:55 am  #53


Re: Why we love Mary!

Willow wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

There is also John and her child to consider (I still think that she might have collected information early on, but the need to protect her child caused her to take drastic measures - after all, the attack on Magnusson was not well thought-out, considering that she didn't know where he stored the information about her).

Yo've just made my point. Panic, then shoot someone. 

Mary doesn't look as if she was panicking in the moments before she shot Sherlock, though of course we know that she is an accomplished actress so that tells us nothing definitive; she takes the time to establish that John is with Sherlock, having done so she alters her aim to shoot him in the central mass and leaves, knowing that John will stay with Sherlock rather than come straight after her, as he indisputably would if she put a bullet through Sherlock's brain.

We know that Mary had intended to go after CAM before she was aware that she was pregnant; there can be no other reason for her cultivating Janine, and every reason to avoid her. Her encouragement of John spending time with Sherlock is understandable, given that it's hard to plan a successful raid on a blackmailing billionaire with a husband to be and a genius under your feet all the time.

Normal people do not kill other people solely for money; belis has, on the evidence so far, eliminated a psychiatric condition so we are left with psychopath, which would certainly solve Mofftiss problem since she would be detained indefinitely, o

However it is remotely possible that Mary has seen the light, a woman saved by the the 'Love of good man,' , which, frankly, I'm sick of as a plot. Marlene Dietrich in 'Destry Rides Again' was superb; Mary, not so...
 

Awesome points, even I didn't catch that she intended to go after CAM before she knew she was pregnant, and that adds to the premeditated cgarge, it makes this worse. 

I can't buy the "love of a good man" plot, when the way she tried to keep him was through attempting to murder that good man's best friend. If she is, in fact, a psychopath, it's a moot point anyway. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 

February 4, 2014 3:33 am  #54


Re: Why we love Mary!

Slightly off the current conversation, but I thought that Mary seemed a little overly sweet at times like she was trying too hard in the first two episodes, but after seeing the final episode I think that shows some nice acting on Amanda's part and some good, subtle writing on the writer's part.  I also started to wonder if Mary discovered that CAM was the one that put John in the bonfire whe she decided to off him... but then she might have brought that up to Sherlock or John...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/josabby/MinionSherlockJohn.jpg
 

February 4, 2014 7:55 am  #55


Re: Why we love Mary!

I think that CAM approached her when he tried to get to Sherlock - so after TEH. She decided to fight back and therefore cultivated a friendship with Janine. But then she learned that she was pregnant (first she looks happy about the prospect, then suddenly worried), meaning that soon she would be hindered by a big baby belly and there was yet another person to protect. So she decided to act as soon as possible, even though she still didn't know where the information are stored. If she had known, she wouldn't have bothered to corner Magnusson in his office - she would have shot im in broad daylight from afar.

Can I mention how awesome it is that she climped a building while pregnant?

     Thread Starter
 

February 4, 2014 11:29 am  #56


Re: Why we love Mary!

Swanpride wrote:

I think that CAM approached her when he tried to get to Sherlock - so after TEH. She decided to fight back and therefore cultivated a friendship with Janine. But then she learned that she was pregnant (first she looks happy about the prospect, then suddenly worried), meaning that soon she would be hindered by a big baby belly and there was yet another person to protect. So she decided to act as soon as possible, even though she still didn't know where the information are stored. If she had known, she wouldn't have bothered to corner Magnusson in his office - she would have shot im in broad daylight from afar.

Can I mention how awesome it is that she climped a building while pregnant?

Please do! Of course, she didn't actually climb the building, but I agree entirely that the implication that she managed to rappel her way up all those sheets of glass without anyone noticing her is superb; we have a lot of all glass exterior buildings in the City and nowadays I look on them with a different perspective

Many of our problems would be solved if we had a definitive timescale; how long does it take to buddy up to someone long enough for it to look plausible to invite them to be your chief bridesmaid? Of course, it may have been the other way around; Janine buddying up to Mary as an agent of CAM, but I think Mary would have spotted her. Might we then have Janine and Mary acting together to take out CAM, who is blackmailing both of them, with Janine enrolled to keep Sherlock out of mischief whilst Mary distracted John? That leaves us with a few problems, viz Janine apparently not mentioning to Mary that she and Sherl were an item, but we could find ways to work around them.

I entirely agree that Mary is an awesome character; my sticking point is the notion that awesome characters must be nice, or, indeed good.  And, as I mentioned above, I feel that the bad woman redeemed by her love for the good man is a theme which has been done altogether too often to make it remotely interesting. But we all know that, at the end of the day, the people who supplied CAM with his information still exist, and as long as they exist Mary will never be safe; this is Moftiss get out clause...
 

 

February 4, 2014 12:28 pm  #57


Re: Why we love Mary!

Mary DIDN'T redeem herself for John. She stuck around for John. But she was already out of the game for at least two years before she even meet John. Sherlock said that she took her new identity five years ago. She meet John during the hiatus, meaning not earlier than two years ago. Before she meet John, she had at least one other relationship (which a guy who looked quite similiar to John, so she apparently has a type).
Normally the chief bridesmaid is either a relative (Mary supposedly doesn't have any) or a friend. It is not really that unbelivable that Mary would ask Janine under the pretense of not having anyone else she feels closer to due to her being an "orphan". This would also explain why Janine didn't mention to Mary that she was with Sherlock, if they are not that close to begin with.

     Thread Starter
 

February 4, 2014 12:38 pm  #58


Re: Why we love Mary!

The reasons why I LOVE MARY (that's the topic of this thread, isnt it?)

1. She can kick ass. 
2. She loves John.
3. She likes Sherlock and Sherlock likes her. Yes, she shot him but...
4. She is NOT normal (whatever that means) so she really gets Sherlock and Sherlock gets her
5. She sees right through Sherlock (the "I'm not John, I can tell when you're fibbing" line was brilliant)
6. She is not only cool with John working with Sherlock, she encourages it.
7. She has a good sense of humor

Also, I love Amanda so I know that influences my perception of Mary but I don't care. I want her to stay around. 

 

February 5, 2014 2:32 am  #59


Re: Why we love Mary!

Because she can be beautiful...

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/08/3d/f4/083df4005979d0b43ec09fc5f803b2ff.jpg


Or a big dork...

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/57/00/ad/5700ad2e417c803eaf809fcd103b43a6.jpg


================================================================
http://i.imgur.com/xVw8L.jpg
 

February 5, 2014 3:26 am  #60


Re: Why we love Mary!

I know I've been hard on Mary, but here are some things I do like about her--

(1) She's a size 12, not a typical American beach bunny glamour girl. 
(2) She's older, has wrinkles, she's very real, as a woman. 
(3) She's funny, warm, and calls both Sherlock and John on their crap in a way that's *not* mean. 
 

 

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