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January 30, 2014 1:19 pm  #21


Re: Why we love Mary!

Good point - I was already wondering myself if she decided to attack CAM the moment she learned about the baby. Yes, I know, she already started a friendship with Janine beforehand, but her original plan might have been different. But the baby forced her hand, so to speak.
 

 

January 30, 2014 2:20 pm  #22


Re: Why we love Mary!

silverblaze wrote:

Oh, I honestly agreed with her. And so did Sherlock, apparantly. Magnussen was about to take over the nation. 

Oh, I honestly agree with you http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png
. And I do believe that killing Magnussen was the only reasonable option, although a lot o people have a problem with it. Mary is an interesting character and I "love" how they developed her. My objection regards the fact how cold she is about it: she could be as well talking about a beetle. Sherlock may finally give in to her way of solving "Magnussen dilemma" by killing him, but he is not cool about it and he would try any other solution before resorting to these desperate measures. Here I see a substantial difference between them two. . My bet is that this contrast was created on purpose by Moftiss.

 

January 30, 2014 3:21 pm  #23


Re: Why we love Mary!

It's actually kind of interesting why she would have said it that way. Who knows what she might have suffered at the hands of people like CAM. She's obviously not a cold person by nature (greatly helped by the fact that AA didn't know the backstory). Maybe there's something more behind this remark. I like her even more now, it's like IRL people who kill are often very normal people who just happened to get into very abnormal situations. Maybe she'll turn out to be a very rounded character. Can't wait to see that happen. 

 

January 30, 2014 3:52 pm  #24


Re: Why we love Mary!

John isn't very bothered about killing bad people either, so I don't have a problem with her "coldness". It is balanced out with a lot of heart. It's really sweet how she looks after her neighbor.

     Thread Starter
 

January 30, 2014 8:18 pm  #25


Re: Why we love Mary!

(greatly helped by the fact that AA didn't know the backstory)

Was this comfirmed somewhere?  


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January 30, 2014 9:30 pm  #26


Re: Why we love Mary!

tonnaree wrote:

(greatly helped by the fact that AA didn't know the backstory)

Was this comfirmed somewhere?  

Yeah, I read that too. Somewhere official.


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January 30, 2014 9:55 pm  #27


Re: Why we love Mary!

She said it in the interview in dvd extras

 

February 2, 2014 10:54 pm  #28


Re: Why we love Mary!

Love Mary!


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February 3, 2014 12:25 am  #29


Re: Why we love Mary!

Michele wrote:

Love Mary!

The difficulty is that Mary was prepared to kill someone who had treated her with great kindness, who had offered to help her a few seconds before she shot him, and whom she knew was loved greatly by her own husband, who she professes to love.

There seem to be some unusual definitions of the word 'love', actually




 

 

February 3, 2014 12:41 am  #30


Re: Why we love Mary!

Yes, Willow, we got it, you don't like her...look at the title of the threat! Some of us do like the character, some of us do look forward to see more of her, some of us do understand why she did what she did (or don't but like her nevertheless) and why John forgave her. Can't you just allow us our squee? The "why Mary should vanish from the show as fast as possible" discussion is already spreat over multiple threads, it is really so difficult to leave this one alone?

     Thread Starter
 

February 3, 2014 1:18 am  #31


Re: Why we love Mary!

Swanpride wrote:

Yes, Willow, we got it, you don't like her...look at the title of the threat! Some of us do like the character, some of us do look forward to see more of her, some of us do understand why she did what she did (or don't but like her nevertheless) and why John forgave her. Can't you just allow us our squee? The "why Mary should vanish from the show as fast as possible" discussion is already spreat over multiple threads, it is really so difficult to leave this one alone?

 
My apologies; my penchant for puns got the better of me. It's a great film, though, so not all is lost

 

February 3, 2014 1:47 am  #32


Re: Why we love Mary!

Willow wrote:

Michele wrote:

Love Mary!

The difficulty is that Mary was prepared to kill someone who had treated her with great kindness, who had offered to help her a few seconds before she shot him, and whom she knew was loved greatly by her own husband, who she professes to love.

There seem to be some unusual definitions of the word 'love', actually




 

Actually, this brings up a question: keep in mind that I am not attacking anyone, and yes, Mary is an enigmatic character. What I am asking has more to do with trying to figure out character motivations-- and how people feel about them. (Yes, I'm writing)

Here's my question: Does Mary's love for John make Mary's action of  shooting (and killing, at least temporarily) Sherlock, acceptable? In other words, can love be considered an extenuating circumstance, meaning that--once Mary's relationship is threatened, she's is no longer responsible for her actions, shouldn't be held responsible; because she's in in effect,  suffering from temporary insanity? 

I think it's great to love the character, even if they are amoral ( I ADORE Dexter, by the way) but it doesn't mean they're not doing bad things; and it's actually okay if we love them for it. It's fiction, after all. I just wonder why we need to justify her actions so badly.
 

 

February 3, 2014 2:39 am  #33


Re: Why we love Mary!

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Willow wrote:

Michele wrote:

Love Mary!

The difficulty is that Mary was prepared to kill someone who had treated her with great kindness, who had offered to help her a few seconds before she shot him, and whom she knew was loved greatly by her own husband, who she professes to love.

There seem to be some unusual definitions of the word 'love', actually




 

Actually, this brings up a question: keep in mind that I am not attacking anyone, and yes, Mary is an enigmatic character. What I am asking has more to do with trying to figure out character motivations-- and how people feel about them. (Yes, I'm writing)

Here's my question: Does Mary's love for John make Mary's action of  shooting (and killing, at least temporarily) Sherlock, acceptable? In other words, can love be considered an extenuating circumstance, meaning that--once Mary's relationship is threatened, she's is no longer responsible for her actions, shouldn't be held responsible; because she's in in effect,  suffering from temporary insanity? 

I think it's great to love the character, even if they are amoral ( I ADORE Dexter, by the way) but it doesn't mean they're not doing bad things; and it's actually okay if we love them for it. It's fiction, after all. I just wonder why we need to justify her actions so badly.
 

 
The difficulty is that Mary doesn't appear to be behaving as if she is suffering from temporary insanity; she is thinking, planning, organising and in general behaving as if this is her perfectly normal state. Obviously belis is the person with the highly informed knowledge of this, so I do not wish to trespass on her field of expertise, but I think it highly improbable that someone genuinely incapacitated by mental illness could retain such high level mental function. When it comes to doing the things she wants to do she certainly does not seem cognitively impaired.

The question of whether  psychopaths are legally, and morally, responsible for their actions is one which has yet to be definitively resolved; again this is Belis field. But in my experience the courts here at least do give it very careful thought.

There are, of course, significant psychological atlerations in pregnant women; some of those are severe. I am not aware of any obstetricians who have ever suggested that such alterations could have driven women insane to the point where they behave as Mary does; it's a different kettle of fish altogether. And, in the interests of boring banality, the answer to your question is no. Had Mary shot Sherlock when she found him making love with John then many courts might accept the 'temporary insanity' justification.

But she didn't. 

 

February 3, 2014 5:15 am  #34


Re: Why we love Mary!

Willow wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Willow wrote:


The difficulty is that Mary was prepared to kill someone who had treated her with great kindness, who had offered to help her a few seconds before she shot him, and whom she knew was loved greatly by her own husband, who she professes to love.

There seem to be some unusual definitions of the word 'love', actually




 

Actually, this brings up a question: keep in mind that I am not attacking anyone, and yes, Mary is an enigmatic character. What I am asking has more to do with trying to figure out character motivations-- and how people feel about them. (Yes, I'm writing)

Here's my question: Does Mary's love for John make Mary's action of  shooting (and killing, at least temporarily) Sherlock, acceptable? In other words, can love be considered an extenuating circumstance, meaning that--once Mary's relationship is threatened, she's is no longer responsible for her actions, shouldn't be held responsible; because she's in in effect,  suffering from temporary insanity? 

I think it's great to love the character, even if they are amoral ( I ADORE Dexter, by the way) but it doesn't mean they're not doing bad things; and it's actually okay if we love them for it. It's fiction, after all. I just wonder why we need to justify her actions so badly.
 

 
The difficulty is that Mary doesn't appear to be behaving as if she is suffering from temporary insanity; she is thinking, planning, organising and in general behaving as if this is her perfectly normal state. Obviously belis is the person with the highly informed knowledge of this, so I do not wish to trespass on her field of expertise, but I think it highly improbable that someone genuinely incapacitated by mental illness could retain such high level mental function. When it comes to doing the things she wants to do she certainly does not seem cognitively impaired.

The question of whether psychopaths are legally, and morally, responsible for their actions is one which has yet to be definitively resolved; again this is Belis field. But in my experience the courts here at least do give it very careful thought.

There are, of course, significant psychological atlerations in pregnant women; some of those are severe. I am not aware of any obstetricians who have ever suggested that such alterations could have driven women insane to the point where they behave as Mary does; it's a different kettle of fish altogether. And, in the interests of boring banality, the answer to your question is no. Had Mary shot Sherlock when she found him making love with John then many courts might accept the 'temporary insanity' justification.

But she didn't.

Actually, you're making me think of the female astronaut who drove for 900 miles wearing adult diapers to go after the woman who was "having an affair" with a love interest, a fellow astronaut. 

I actually think the woman was definitly unbalanced: so-- as regards, Mary--maybe there's a place for character development-- ( I may go that route for a fic, actually.) So, then-- what happens when she's no longer threatened? Does the desire to kill to protect also become dormant? 

So that leads to: what happens if/when/  she percieves that she's threatened again? And it almost certainly will happen, CAM is not the only one with dirt on her. 

And, I hate to say this, for for the sake of dramatic imaginings-- suppose John loves the baby more than Mary? 

Thanks for entertaining my weird questions-- they really are coming from a point of storytelling. :-)
 

 

February 3, 2014 8:12 am  #35


Re: Why we love Mary!

As a killer in her 'previous life' Mary is reverting to type/conditioning or whatever here though isn't she? A trained killer shooting someone is really not the same as someone who has never been in that 'profession'. Nothing about what happens appears to be either spur-of-the-moment or the work of someone who psychologically is not fully aware of what it is they are doing.


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February 3, 2014 9:13 am  #36


Re: Why we love Mary!

And here we go again....is it really so difficult to allow us to just enjoy a layered, awesome female character?

     Thread Starter
 

February 3, 2014 9:45 am  #37


Re: Why we love Mary!

Have deleted my previous post - was just replying to some interesting comments made, but I get that this thread is for appreciation only.
Apologies


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
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February 3, 2014 10:35 am  #38


Re: Why we love Mary!

I don't necessarily think that a woman with a past as a trained assassin or whatever is necessarily a negative though. It is not a gender specific job.  I am not saying I don't like her. I like Black Widow, she has the same kind of  back story. Everyone deserves a possibility of redemption surely? The fact that she has left her past behind her (albeit not completely) and has hopefully found a new identity and the possibility of falling in love with John, with a baby on the way is so much more hard-hitting than if she was 'ordinary'.

Last edited by Davina (February 3, 2014 10:39 am)


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February 3, 2014 6:00 pm  #39


Re: Why we love Mary!

I do think she gets more hatred than if the same character was written as a male. There are so many shows that have male protaganists who do horrible things, murder torture etc. Dexter, 24, quite a few police procedurals. No one is batting an eye. 

I think people sometimes overestimate how realistic this show is meant to be. There are so many impossible things in it, might as well have an assassin wife too. 

 

February 3, 2014 6:52 pm  #40


Re: Why we love Mary!

Oh I don't know - I always find it hard to feel the love for a "baddie" to be honest, no matter who they are; I didn't "like" Moriarty either, though many did.
I love characters who have a good heart, and I don't believe it's impossible to be strong, interesting but still good at heart.
Like Sherlock, in fact!
Or Molly, or John, or even Mary for the first two episodes, at least,


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

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