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January 22, 2014 1:21 pm  #21


Re: Mary's Death

I loved seeing Sherlock's parents but I do think it's one of those things that should only be used sparingly.  Just a bit of them from time to time.


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January 22, 2014 1:34 pm  #22


Re: Mary's Death

this is getting off topic, isn't it?
there are other threads discussing on who or what we would love to see in s4.
i'm torn: not too sure, if marys death will come at all. they built her up too much, amanda sitting in various interviews like a new lead, just doesn't feel likely for me to do so just to kill her off in the first 5 minutes. And listening to the cast interviews i don't have a feeling that amanda is too keen to step back again.
If she dies I also hope it will be in some heroic way. Dread the impact on john though...
Maybe tiny toddler watson will be called mary after his dead mother, so there will still be a mary and a sherlock looking after john for the rest of his life!
I'm not even into parentlock...


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January 22, 2014 2:50 pm  #23


Re: Mary's Death

If she dies (or something else happens to her) they will certainly do a propper built up for it. She should be safe until the very end of the first episode.

 

January 22, 2014 7:59 pm  #24


Re: Mary's Death

Swanpride wrote:

If she dies (or something else happens to her) they will certainly do a propper built up for it. She should be safe until the very end of the first episode.

I'm not sure that they would plan a seismic event like Mary's death for the end of the first episode; it would feel too much like an end of season cliffhanger with another two episodes to go. The episodes last the length of an average feature film so there is plenty of time to despatch her and still move on with the plot; if Moftiss stick with their 'It's not a detective show, it's a show about a detective' concept then they cannot make S4 depend too greatly on the fate of another character.

Obviously the actress playing Mary would like a lot of screen time but it's incredibly difficult to get the balance right; it's even more difficult to see how they would fit a baby into the dynamics of a show about a detective. I suspect that the baby was the idea the writers came up with to explain why John would even contemplate resuming a relationship with the woman who had almost murdered Sherlock, but they now have to extricate themselves from the consequences of that idea...
 

 

January 23, 2014 8:22 am  #25


Re: Mary's Death

If they want to make the rest of the season about avanging Mary, they might. Plus, everyone will expect something happen to her in every third episode from now on. So if they do it, they will pick either the first or the second.

 

January 23, 2014 10:27 am  #26


Re: Mary's Death

Swanpride wrote:

If they want to make the rest of the season about avanging Mary, they might..

No. I am prepared to wager folding money that Moftiss would jump off Tower Bridge together in preference to writing a season about avenging Mary. This is not 'The Mentalist' and they have no intention of destroying the show with something which looks like a worked over version of another show. Ditto Mary following them around shooting people she thinks might threaten them; Moftiss have completely ruled out that one, again because it would destroy the show.

I recognise that there is wonderful ensemble acting but in the end I come back to what Moffat said a while back; the amazing thing about this Sherlock is that they are young guys who have just met and do not realise that it's the start of a life long partnership with all those adventures ahead of them. A bit like Kirk and Spock but with no Warp Drive 

I love that, and I want to watch those adventures, but Mary isn't part of them. I think Moftiss know they have to get rid of her, and it's either death or she disappears into something like a witness protection scheme which Mycroft could arrange, though he might not want to...
 

 

January 23, 2014 10:57 am  #27


Re: Mary's Death

Neither is Mycroft "part of them" but he has nevertheless an important role in the show, despite barely turning up in canon.

I just think that if the writers will kill her, they will it when we don't expect it. Everyone will expect for every third episodes of each season, though.

 

January 23, 2014 11:54 am  #28


Re: Mary's Death

Willow wrote:

I recognise that there is wonderful ensemble acting but in the end I come back to what Moffat said a while back; the amazing thing about this Sherlock is that they are young guys who have just met and do not realise that it's the start of a life long partnership with all those adventures ahead of them. A bit like Kirk and Spock but with no Warp Drive

I love that, and I want to watch those adventures, but Mary isn't part of them.

Your last sentence says it all. I totally agree.


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January 23, 2014 12:30 pm  #29


Re: Mary's Death

Swanpride wrote:

Neither is Mycroft "part of them" but he has nevertheless an important role in the show, despite barely turning up in canon.

I just think that if the writers will kill her, they will it when we don't expect it. Everyone will expect for every third episodes of each season, though.

Mycroft appears, or is mentioned in, 4 of the original stories but we know that he had many meetings with Sherlock:

' Again and again I have taken a problem to him, and have received an explanation which has afterwards proved to be the correct one. And yet he was absolutely incapable of working out the practical points...'

I don't think that you can accurately describe that as 'barely turning up in the canon'; Sherlock obviously maintains frequent contact with him and Moftiss are showing that contact.

I agree that many would expect her to be polished off in a seasonal finale, but I wouldn't; that has to be about Sherlock. However the storyline with Mary ends it can't be a rerun of John desperately grieving because John's already done the desperately grieving thing for Sherlock, and they can't simply rinse and repeat and still keep the story fresh.

It will be interesting to see how they manage it, but the obvious way to avoid the desperate grief would be by Mary doing something truly unforgivable; for example, if she's part of a wider story line involving the apparent return of Moriarty. And I have never understood why a woman madly in love would not dive into the fire alongside Sherlock to help drag John out; it doesn't ring true to me. Perhaps there is a clue in there...
 

 

January 23, 2014 12:54 pm  #30


Re: Mary's Death

If you count "by the way" remarks like this, than Mary/Mrs Watson is just as present. Never mind that in canon Holmes and Watson are not living together for long periods of time (and still end up together again at one point). I think I mentioned already somewhere that the stories with Mary/Mrs Watson have the advantage that they have way more creative beginnings. She is a character who adds to the dynamic, and I think the writers will use that - even if they decide to get rid of her, it will have a proper built up and a proper inpact. They will not gloss over the emotions connected with her the way ACD did.

 

January 23, 2014 2:29 pm  #31


Re: Mary's Death

It wouldn't surprise me if she sticks around in the background a bit, maybe for another series as a background wife like in the canon. I guess we'll get one more episode about her in which we learn about her past and which probably also contains her death. Maybe in series 4, or in series 5, Moftiss are probably a bit more confident about planning things into the future than before. 

The baby however is another story. I have absolutely no idea how they would make that work, it's not canon. It'll have to die at some point but how to do that while still being classy? A miscarriage or disease are the only options I can think about. 

 

January 23, 2014 3:08 pm  #32


Re: Mary's Death

Swanpride wrote:

If you count "by the way" remarks like this, than Mary/Mrs Watson is just as present. Never mind that in canon Holmes and Watson are not living together for long periods of time (and still end up together again at one point). I think I mentioned already somewhere that the stories with Mary/Mrs Watson have the advantage that they have way more creative beginnings. She is a character who adds to the dynamic, and I think the writers will use that - even if they decide to get rid of her, it will have a proper built up and a proper inpact. They will not gloss over the emotions connected with her the way ACD did.

I do not regard 'Again and again I have taken a problem to him' as a 'by the way' remark, and I cannot fathom how Mary Morstan in canon could be said to be just as present in Holmes' working life as Mycroft was; she wasn't.

Mary in Season 3 has no such role either; the sum total of her positive contribution is remembering Sholto's room number. This is not exactly a rounded CV; she can recognise a skip code but doesn't understand how to decipher it, and her one skill set as the lethal killer nurse wandering around offing anyone who looks a bit dodgy has been conclusively ruled out by Moftiss.

This doesn't leave her with many options, and Mofftiss have already done a lot of preparation for the emotions of the characters. John's decision to try and make a go of it was far from a foregone conclusion, and whilst he does give her the benefit of the doubt it would not survive the discovery, say, that she had played a part in causing TRF or has something to do with the return of the Big Bad. It would undoubtedly be traumatic, but he has already dealt with much of the grief; the anger that he acknowledges he still feels would then be unleashed. That would be much more fun for the actor, Martin, since he's not a one trick pony; he doesn't want to do same old, same old.

Equally with Sherlock; he's gone further than anyone has the right to expect in putting aside the agony she inflicted on him, but I don't think he gives second chances. It does seem to me that his affection for Mary is based on the fact that John wants her, and he wants John to be happy; add to that Sherlock's somewhat naive belief that mothers are like his mother, giving up her career to have children, and his disillusionment would be extreme...


 

 

January 23, 2014 3:28 pm  #33


Re: Mary's Death

silverblaze wrote:

It wouldn't surprise me if she sticks around in the background a bit, maybe for another series as a background wife like in the canon. I guess we'll get one more episode about her in which we learn about her past and which probably also contains her death. Maybe in series 4, or in series 5, Moftiss are probably a bit more confident about planning things into the future than before. 

The baby however is another story. I have absolutely no idea how they would make that work, it's not canon. It'll have to die at some point but how to do that while still being classy? A miscarriage or disease are the only options I can think about. 

The baby is one of the reasons I think she will die sooner rather than later; I can see hours of endless amusement with Sherlock confronted by a real baby but it's not dramatic and it's not special. There are plenty of shows with adorable babies and terrible toddlers but Sherlock isn't aimed at that sector of the market; about the only thing which would reconcile me to Mary nobly dying to save others ( I mean, really?) is if she has already had the baby. You don't nobly sacrifice your own unborn child; it's a contradiction in terms.

AGRA may have a family; Mary's status as an orphan is fictional, so there may be some scope for close relatives wanting to adopt the baby, but like you I really cannot see how they are going to do it...
 

 

January 23, 2014 3:50 pm  #34


Re: Mary's Death

Well, perhaps Mary learns at one point that her "real Mother" needs help and therefore travels to help her....after all, in canon there is suddenly a mother popping up, too.

Either way, I somehow expect her to die (if she dies) while protecting John and/or her baby (if it's ever born).

 

January 23, 2014 7:57 pm  #35


Re: Mary's Death

Making Mary a definitive good guy or bad guy , or having her hang around too long would be out of the Sherlock box.
I would be surprised if they did that , it would be new and interesting though, and maybe a sign they would do it in other areas, even newer and more interesting.

What would be surprising (coming from this team) would be something boring ordinary and unrelated to a complex dramatic plot...so i am going to go with at the end of series4 a random everyday ordinary car crash kills them. Thus the bromance continues stronger and more united in grief during the hiatus.
By series5....back to the story.
Heh.

N.B Another truely interesting option is for Mary/child to not die...but be out of the story...go back into hiding from bad guys or witness protection cia or a divorce. However here we need a strong reason for John not to go with them..e.g not the baby's father.
This is outside the box and leaves the other areas guessing games going.

Last edited by lil (January 25, 2014 4:09 am)

 

February 4, 2014 8:22 am  #36


Re: Mary's Death

The Mary storyline really intrigues me. I was convinced Mary would be dead by the end of series 3, I was wrong. So I am quite careful predicting anything concerning her for S4.
But I guess Gatiss and Moffat knew that everybody expected Mary not to last longer than just one series, so they possibly just tricked us again. I'm curious what they have in store for her. It could be anything from housewife/mother, who doesn't get in the way much (which would be just boring and thus seems the most unlikely option) to her going bad again, goingt into hiding, sacrificing herself, dying in an accident. There are so many options around.
But I'm certain that we are going to learn more about her past. I think CAM isn't the only one with an interest in her, so I guess her previous life is going to catch up with her at some point. If they stay true to canon with her storyline it seems very likely she doesn't make it to the end of series 4, which could result in the terrifying series 5 Moffat hinted at.
But then it's Moffat and he can't be trusted anyway...http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/devious.png


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February 5, 2014 6:55 am  #37


Re: Mary's Death

I was convinced they'd keep to canon and kill Mary off, but the pregnancy threw me and now I won't be surprised if she remains in the show - apart from anything else, there seems to be a lot of affection for Amanda, and I think they'll be reluctant to write her out.
I keep changing my mind about this, actually but at the moment I feel sure she will stay in till the end!

Last edited by Tinks (February 5, 2014 6:56 am)


"And in the end,
The Love you take
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February 5, 2014 12:09 pm  #38


Re: Mary's Death

I wonder whether they will start series 4 with Mary and John in mourning - she lost the baby through miscarriage not long after series 3 ended. That would get the baby theme out of the way straight away(sorry baby!).

Then I think she will die protecting either Sherlock or John, or both, in some dangerous situation, and will die in John's arms. Maybe they were initially protecting her when someone from her past came back for revenge, but the tables turn and she ends up saving their lives. So she dies a hero. I think to make her evil would be wrong.

That's my two cents worth anyway.http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


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February 5, 2014 12:42 pm  #39


Re: Mary's Death

I don´t like her or the baby dying. Couldn´t they just live happily in the house and John work with Sherlock?


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February 5, 2014 1:16 pm  #40


Re: Mary's Death

I don't like the baby dying either - it doesn't " fit" with this show, imo - and it's one too many tragedies for John.
There wasn't a baby in ACDs version, as far as I can remember, but Watson was much older than "our" Watson when he was widowed, so maybe they can keep Mary in the show and say it's still in keeping with canon because she doesn't die until much later in their lives.
In which case I wish even more that they'd chosen a different way to ramp up the drama other than her shooting Sherlock - why couldn't someone else have shot him and Mary be the one to save him?
Oh well - I suppose I'll get over it - eventually:D


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

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