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January 18, 2014 11:07 pm  #1


Sherlock and Sholto

There is a short dialogue between these two I am not quite sure about. Does Sholto refer to what he has read in the media about Sherlock? Or did John talk about him? I did not have the impression that he and John had been in contact, Sholto being a recluse. 

SHOLTO: Mr. Holmes, you and I are similar, I think.
(John turns away from the door and Sherlock walks closer.)
SHERLOCK: Yes, I think we are.
SHOLTO: There’s a proper time to die, isn’t there?
SHERLOCK: Of course there is.
SHOLTO: And one should embrace it when it comes – like a soldier.
SHERLOCK (firmly): Of course one should, but not at John’s wedding. We wouldn’t do that, would we – you and me? We would never do that to John Watson.

(source: http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/66485.html)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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January 18, 2014 11:09 pm  #2


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

I don't think they have been in contact. I think Sholto has just made an assessment of the kind of person Sherlock is and determined that they are similar. Plus, Sholto may well know about Sherlock Holmes as he's been in a lot of the papers.


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January 18, 2014 11:12 pm  #3


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

And they are similar in the way that both have enemies and have been bashed by the media. Plus, Sholto has heard the wedding speech and therefore knows they both like and respect John. After all he went out of hiding to attend the wedding. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

January 27, 2014 12:36 pm  #4


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

They are similar because they provided danger and adrenaline for John. A certain life style and a chain of command John was used to in the army.  "Neither of us were the first."
Sherlock's line to Mary about John bouncing around Sholto like a puppy. Not quite flattering for John.
 

 

January 27, 2014 12:49 pm  #5


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

And it is also the first time IMO, that Sherlock really seems jealous of someone who is near John. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

Last edited by gently69 (January 27, 2014 12:50 pm)


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January 27, 2014 9:27 pm  #6


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

gently69 wrote:

And it is also the first time IMO, that Sherlock really seems jealous of someone who is near John. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

That's interesting. And he's more jealous of a man (Sholto) than of a woman (Mary.)

He never had any lines like, "Wait, a minute, John, I'm back, you don't need to marry her now."

Both John and Sherlock wanted to save Sholto's life, but it seemed to me there was some modicum of empathy for Small, too. I mean, there wasn't a big, "Oh, what a desipicable criminal," reaction. Small's motive spoke to the same theme: perhaps he and his brother had a relationship much like Sherlock's and John's (well, without the Johnlock-y implications, of course.) But in the brotherly sense. We know John and Sherlock would kill to protect each other.

 

February 1, 2014 3:46 am  #7


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Considering Sholto's situation, John had to be pretty important to him for him to come to the wedding at all.

 

February 2, 2014 6:27 pm  #8


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Talking about similarities: Have you seen that there is a certain similarity between Sholto's uniform and Mycroft's track suit? Black with red stripes.
What can we read into that? I don't believe in coincidence. The universe is rarely so lazy.
Where is the connection between Sholto and Mycroft?
Mycroft is a recluse, too. He is working for queen and country like Sholto did in the past. Mycroft is in a way Sherlock's superior. His older brother and somebody who might sometimes be a tiny bit cleverer. Maybe when Sherlock works for MI5 or the British government Mycroft is the one who provides the guidelines.
Are we meant to see that Mycroft is for Sherlock what Sholto was/is for John?

What else does that mean? John dancing around Sholto like a puppy. And Sherlock who wants to make his big brother proud by slaying the dragon for Mycroft?

I am not quite happy with this interpretation but the implication is there.  

 

February 2, 2014 9:18 pm  #9


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Be wrote:

Talking about similarities: Have you seen that there is a certain similarity between Sholto's uniform and Mycroft's track suit? Black with red stripes.
What can we read into that? I don't believe in coincidence. The universe is rarely so lazy.
Where is the connection between Sholto and Mycroft?
Mycroft is a recluse, too. He is working for queen and country like Sholto did in the past. Mycroft is in a way Sherlock's superior. His older brother and somebody who might sometimes be a tiny bit cleverer. Maybe when Sherlock works for MI5 or the British government Mycroft is the one who provides the guidelines.
Are we meant to see that Mycroft is for Sherlock what Sholto was/is for John?

What else does that mean? John dancing around Sholto like a puppy. And Sherlock who wants to make his big brother proud by slaying the dragon for Mycroft?

I am not quite happy with this interpretation but the implication is there.  

Sholto's a recluse due to living in fear of his life...so what is the social occasion for which he makes an exception?: the wedding of John Watson.

John is just a magnet for...this type of person (and I haven't even seen HLV yet).

 

February 4, 2014 4:49 pm  #10


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

(and I haven't even seen HLV yet).

Oh, dear...
 

 

February 6, 2014 1:13 am  #11


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Be wrote:

Talking about similarities: Have you seen that there is a certain similarity between Sholto's uniform and Mycroft's track suit? Black with red stripes.
What can we read into that? I don't believe in coincidence. The universe is rarely so lazy.
Where is the connection between Sholto and Mycroft?
Mycroft is a recluse, too. He is working for queen and country like Sholto did in the past. Mycroft is in a way Sherlock's superior. His older brother and somebody who might sometimes be a tiny bit cleverer. Maybe when Sherlock works for MI5 or the British government Mycroft is the one who provides the guidelines.
Are we meant to see that Mycroft is for Sherlock what Sholto was/is for John?

What else does that mean? John dancing around Sholto like a puppy. And Sherlock who wants to make his big brother proud by slaying the dragon for Mycroft?

I am not quite happy with this interpretation but the implication is there.  

Sholto's a recluse due to living in fear of his life...so what is the social occasion for which he makes an exception?: the wedding of John Watson.

John is just a magnet for...this type of person (and I haven't even seen HLV yet).

 
Well, when you do see it you can have a look at Sholto's similarities to another figure you have met...

 

March 9, 2015 2:10 pm  #12


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Digging out this thread again because the "neither of us was the first" remark kept nagging me. And then I had a look at all the parallels between Sherlock and Sholto. I am sure they are there for a reason and I would love to hear your thoughts. 

John about Sherlock and Sholto
"I’m his doctor." (unaired pilot)
"I believe I am your doctor." (TSoT)

Mary about Sherlock and herself with regard to Sholto:
"Neither of us were the first."

Sherlock probably comparing himself to Sholto:
"He is? He’s the most unsociable?"

John comparing Sholto and Sherlock:
"He gets more death threats than you."

Sholto about Sherlock:
"Mr Holmes, you and I are similar, I think." 

And Sherlock's emphatic:
"We wouldn’t do that, would we – you and me? We would never do that to John Watson."

We also have Sherlock quickly closing the tab on Sholto the moment he enters the living-room in 221B and trying to make smalltalk about John's past by mentioning Sholto once more. 

Of course one might argue that Sholto is the intended victim of the a murder but the comparisons and parallels start long before the characters know that a crime is going to happen.

And I would like to come back again to Mary's words: "Neither of us were the first, you know." Meaning, if I am not mistaken, Sholto was the first. But the first what? What exactly does she hint at? If I understand her correctly, she says that she and Sherlock and Sholto are all in a similar relationship to John. But this does not make sense, does it? Provided you do not take it in the widest sense of "people he has met at one point in his life" which seems a bit too general IMO. 
So we have wife/love interest - best friend - former commanding officer - where is the connection? 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (March 9, 2015 2:13 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 9, 2015 2:18 pm  #13


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Interesting thread. The comment "neither of us were the first, you know" is something I've always interpreted as Mary saying John has had girlfriends before Mary and very close friends before Sherlock. It's meant as a comment (and sort of comfort) to Sherlock when Mary sees his obvious discomfort and jealousy. I imagine since Sherlock has never had any close friends before, he probably assumed John hadn't either. And I can actually understand that stinging a bit.


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March 9, 2015 2:21 pm  #14


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

I thinik it's made very plain that Sholto is meant to mirror Sherlock's relastionship with John.
And that's with or without the addition of Johnlock connotations.

Even if John does tease Sherlock about using the term "Commanding Officer" there is no doubt of the similarities.  Sherlock and Sholto are both charismatic leaders that John trusts and is willing to follow into danger.  John, who we've established does not have a lot of real friends, allows both these men close to him.  When you factor in the fact that Sholto is now a recluse you have to assume that he and John were more than just fellow officers.  I think it's obviously implied that they had a close emotional bond.  Why else would Sholto brave the "outside" to go to John's wedding.

At the very least, Mary's "not the first" comment referes to the fact that even though John does not often let people get close to him, she and Sherlock were not the first one's he did so.


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March 9, 2015 3:04 pm  #15


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

The thing that keeps nagging me is why adding a couple of things?
Firstly, why giving Mary this sentence in the first place, there could have been different possibilities to show that she sympathizes with Sherlock's jealousy but to equal herself with him. Doesn't go for the good friendship route IMHO.
Secondly, why aggravating the friendship between John and Sholto in such a way, both with Mary's comment as well as the talk on the bench. Sholto is there for the resolution of the murders, but the relationship could have been treated much more lighthearted.


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March 9, 2015 3:14 pm  #16


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Yes, I was getting the feeling that things remained unsaid, that there was more to it than met the eye. Anyway, they use Sholto not just for the sake of the case but for characterising Sherlock, John, and Mary which is quite an interesting idea. It is just that I am not sure how all this is connected. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
     Thread Starter
 

March 9, 2015 3:40 pm  #17


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

My own personal headcanon is that John and Sholto did have unresolved romantic feelings for each other much in the same way I see him and Sherlock now.  I think regret of not knowing what would've happened if he and Sholto had been able to explore their feelings will play a part in John being able to move forward with Sherlock.

But I freely admit that there can be other interpritations.


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"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
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March 9, 2015 4:14 pm  #18


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

A question for native speakers: (And I am re-phrasing it for the fourth time now. It really is complicated for me to talk about it in an abstract way in a foreign language, so I will use an example).

When Mary says, "neither of us were the first, you know" , can it only mean "Neither you nor I were his first XXX (close friend or lover or soulmate or poker partner or whatever)", or can it also mean "I wasn't his first love and you weren't his first best friend"?


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March 9, 2015 4:45 pm  #19


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Good question, Schmiezi. I assumed it must be the first meaning, but when I re-read it, I feel like the second could just be as possible. I felt Mary wanted to say something along the line: John had a life before he met you and before he met me.

I find it interesting how Mary adds "you know". I feel it's kind of nice, she is taking over the role of a friend explaining something she understands and Sherlock doesn't yet. And I don't find it comes across as patronising, but rather considerate and caring.

The dialogue Sherlock-Sholto... well, I find the last line also very interesting.
SHERLOCK (firmly): Of course one should, but not at John’s wedding. We wouldn’t do that, would we – you and me? We would never do that to John Watson.
I feel that's another time Sherlock apologizes to John, in his unusual ways. Because he DID that to John Watson. But now he firmly states that it was wrong, that he wouldn't do that again, even that he would never ever do it. And even more, he realises how John must feel if Sholto dies on his wedding and he is very eager to not let it happen, to save John from the pain. He cares a lot about John in that scene. I like that.
 


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March 9, 2015 4:57 pm  #20


Re: Sherlock and Sholto

Schmiezi wrote:

A question for native speakers: (And I am re-phrasing it for the fourth time now. It really is complicated for me to talk about it in an abstract way in a foreign language, so I will use an example).

When Mary says, "neither of us were the first, you know" , can it only mean "Neither you nor I were his first XXX (close friend or lover or soulmate or poker partner or whatever)", or can it also mean "I wasn't his first love and you weren't his first best friend"?

 
It could be taken either way, but the first assumtion would be much more common.


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"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
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