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January 22, 2014 6:22 pm  #101


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Hm, no, it's not just you. And I think it has been explored AND answered right afterwards, in HLV......


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January 22, 2014 6:29 pm  #102


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Well, for me there is a sort of arch regarding his behaviour in series 3. He starts in quite a distant way ("What life?"), changes into comedy and silliness out of sheer helplessness at the reunion and becomes more and more considerate and friendly throughout TSoT. This culminates in his dancing lesson with Janine and the emotional vow. From then on I see a certain turn towards seriousness (but not his old rude self) when he leaves the wedding alone. In HLV there is hardly any comedy apart from the first Janine scene making it the darkest episode. 

We do get some answers from the Mind Palace scene. He clearly suffered from the loss of his dog and afterwards distanced himself from feelings as he remarks in HoB. In TSoT Mycroft warns him that might happen again but Sherlock does not suppress his feelings any longer which makes him vulnerable but also able to appreciate friendship more than before. 
And we see that he clearly has not forgotten his traumatic encounters with Moriarty. He is still buried somewhere deep in his psyche, a fact that we also know from the end of HoB. 
I think this is quite a lot of information we get here. And I like it that the writers do not spell out everything but use hints or allusions. 


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January 22, 2014 6:38 pm  #103


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Mattlocked wrote:

Hm, no, it's not just you. And I think it has been explored AND answered right afterwards, in HLV......

I need to watch HLV again. The first time I watched it... It took me awhile to watch because I just couldn't get into it. I really need to rewatch Series three as a whole when I get the chance. I just felt disappointed by it like I said earlier. 

I think this is quite a lot of information we get here. And I like it that the writers do not spell out everything but use hints or allusions.

No, I like when writers don't spell everything out. I love it, but here, I feel differently. I feel that there were hints of something going on when nothing actually happens. Makes me feel I saw something that wasn't there.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (January 22, 2014 6:40 pm)

 

January 22, 2014 7:19 pm  #104


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Be wrote:

That's what I wanted to say. I haven't got the DVDs yet. And what is realistic in Sherlock's pirouette for example? It's clearly too much. Nobody would do that outside a dance studio.

Actually, I really enjoyed that moment; he was showing off- not exactly a hugely unSherlockian thing to do- and then the writers capped it with him wistfully remarking that he kept hoping it would come in useful on a case, but it never had.

I suppose this is just another example of the way in which different people will have profoundly different responses to the same events...

 

 

January 22, 2014 8:10 pm  #105


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

I honestly haven't really noticed any plotholes in any of the episodes. I don't care if there are any, I'm not interested. I've enjoyed them ALL, on some level. Every single episode. Of course, there's always going to be favourites, some you like more than others, but can we try and inject a little more positivitiy around here, please....this is a BBC Sherlock FAN Forum - emphasis on the word fan there. If you've been so disappointed in Series 3 that you no longer consider yourself a fan, then I'm not sure you should be posting here. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a general observation. I don't want people to start feeling down or negative about overly critical remarks about the series here on this forum.


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January 22, 2014 8:12 pm  #106


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

SusiGo wrote:

Mod's note:
I just found a link to this very thread on tumblr. And I really regret very much if people would take THIS as an example of how things are discussed here. This is a place for tolerant and respectful discussion, not for personal insults and general condemnation. Mysteria, if you are as disappointed with the episodes as you seem to be, fine. But please refrain from attacking people who do not share your views. By now you should have realised that not everyone seems to share your opinions.  

^^^^^ this ^^^^^


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January 22, 2014 8:29 pm  #107


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I honestly haven't really noticed any plotholes in any of the episodes. I don't care if there are any, I'm not interested. I've enjoyed them ALL, on some level. Every single episode. Of course, there's always going to be favourites, some you like more than others, but can we try and inject a little more positivitiy around here, please....this is a BBC Sherlock FAN Forum - emphasis on the word fan there. If you've been so disappointed in Series 3 that you no longer consider yourself a fan, then I'm not sure you should be posting here. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a general observation. I don't want people to start feeling down or negative about overly critical remarks about the series here on this forum.

I agree! People who enjoyed the heck out of Series 3 should be able to enjoy and not let anyone who didn't get in their way of enjoying it.

But it also works the another way around. Someone who was disappointed with Series three should be able to express why they were disappointed. After all, no series is perfect, but that doesn't mean those who disagree with certain events or characters hate the series. 

Please I don't want to see this forum turn into some other forums I had been on that turn everything into a "if you don't like this, you aren't a fan!" or "if you do like this, you aren't a fan"  I hate that. In one of my old forums for a different show, all I did was criticize some writing that I believed was bad. I didn't hate the show nor was I insulting anyone. I was just discussing something I felt wasn't up to par, but other fans started attacking, saying if I didn't like the show, I should stop watching it. But I didn't hate the show! I liked it! But they just kept hound on others for just giving constructive criticism. It turned me off from that fandom and I left.

Not every fan would agree, but let there at least be a mutual understanding on both sides. No personal insults or yelling at other opinions, saying that they are invalid.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (January 22, 2014 9:55 pm)

 

January 22, 2014 9:54 pm  #108


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

I honestly haven't really noticed any plotholes in any of the episodes. I don't care if there are any, I'm not interested. I've enjoyed them ALL, on some level. Every single episode. Of course, there's always going to be favourites, some you like more than others, but can we try and inject a little more positivitiy around here, please....this is a BBC Sherlock FAN Forum - emphasis on the word fan there. If you've been so disappointed in Series 3 that you no longer consider yourself a fan, then I'm not sure you should be posting here. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, just a general observation. I don't want people to start feeling down or negative about overly critical remarks about the series here on this forum.

I agree! People who enjoyed the heck out of Series 3 should be able to enjoy and not like anyone who didn't get in their way of enjoying it.

But it also works the another way around. Someone who was disappointed with Series three should be able to express why they were disappointed. After all, no series is perfect, but that doesn't mean those who disagree with certain events or characters hate the series. 

Please I don't want to see this forum turn into some other forums I had been on that turn everything into a "if you don't like this, you aren't a fan!" or "if you do like this, you aren't a fan"  I hate that. In one of my old forums for a different show, all I did was criticize some writing that I believed was bad. I didn't hate the show nor was I insulting anyone. I was just discussing something I felt wasn't up to par, but other fans started attacking, saying if I didn't like the show, I should stop watching it. But I didn't hate the show! I liked it! But they just kept hound on others for just giving constructive criticism. It turned me off from that fandom and I left.

Not every fan would agree, but let there at least be a mutual understanding on both sides. No personal insults or yelling at other opinions, saying that they are invalid.

I agree with both of you. It should be possible on this forum to share our enthusiasm about S3, but also to mention the things we feel unsure about or which didn't fully convince us. I experience both sides with S3: there are loads of things I absolutely love, but there also are a few things with which I don't feel completely satisfied. And as long as we don't just say "boy, that sucks" but try to explain what bothers us, then I think that should be fine...?


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January 22, 2014 10:07 pm  #109


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

The problem isn't so much that people criticize...it's often that they criticize SO MUCH that it becomes pointless to debate it and then all of the threads turn into a constant stream of negativity.  You see it a lot in "LotR" and "Doctor Who" fandom...people just hate that something doesn't turn out like they think it will and grow resentful.  It's not so much that it's bad...it's just different from what they thought it would be.  I would say that has happened here...Series 3 is different from what came before.  They focused on the relationships instead of the mystery- it was a gamble, and not everyone was going to like it.  But the writers felt it was necessary to tell their story, and I think that's what people often forget.  That it's not my story, your story or anyone else's story other than the people writing the show.  They know where it's going, and we don't.  They have a very limited format to work with, so one underwhelming episode seems like a HUGE waste in many people's opinions.  If this series had 24 episodes per season, no one would think twice about seeing Sherlock and John drunk detecting after a stag night...but given Sherlock's limited time frame, it seems like a waste to those who want to see more 'mystery'.  It doesn't mean it's a waste...it just means that someone wanted to see something else and they didn't get it.

I can see both sides of the argument, and I respect everyone's opinion on it.  However, for me, personally, I enjoyed this series very much.  I loved the change in format, I loved what they did with Mary, and I really enjoyed the villain.  These writers have been known to never rest on their laurels, and this was no exception.  I think, given time and distance, people will appreciate what they did in this series more than they do when it's so fresh in their mind.


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January 22, 2014 10:31 pm  #110


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

sj4iy wrote:

The problem isn't so much that people criticize...it's often that they criticize SO MUCH that it becomes pointless to debate it and then all of the threads turn into a constant stream of negativity.  You see it a lot in "LotR" and "Doctor Who" fandom...people just hate that something doesn't turn out like they think it will and grow resentful.

Yeah, that's what I meant. This is what I'm trying to avoid here, essentially.

Criticism and debate is fine, encouraged even...but there's a difference between constructive criticism and just outright resentment and hate and trampling over other people's opinions. I don't think we've quite got to that stage yet but I'm just throwing a warning out there....


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January 22, 2014 11:55 pm  #111


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Well, I appreciate it. Especially since I have gotten the impression that it is mostly the same poster who are so downright negative about the show. Just looking at the posts one could think that the whole forum is hating the new direction Sherlock picked, and I don't think that this is true.

 

January 23, 2014 3:50 am  #112


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

Everyone has their own interpretation of characters. I never disputed that Sherlock has an emotional side. He does. .... But Sherlock has acted more emotional in Series three than the other two series. He smiles and laughs more. 

Well, as the writers of this show said themselves: "Like Sherlock Holmes laughs all the time in the stories, he's always bursting out laughing, or roaring with laughter, or having a laugh. And Sherlock and Watson in the stories actually laugh together a lot. You never see it! He's always stern. He's not like that at all, he's quite impish."

So maybe we are simply moving CLOSER to the canon and not further away?


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January 23, 2014 11:43 am  #113


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

The Doctor wrote:

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

Everyone has their own interpretation of characters. I never disputed that Sherlock has an emotional side. He does. .... But Sherlock has acted more emotional in Series three than the other two series. He smiles and laughs more. 

Well, as the writers of this show said themselves: "Like Sherlock Holmes laughs all the time in the stories, he's always bursting out laughing, or roaring with laughter, or having a laugh. And Sherlock and Watson in the stories actually laugh together a lot. You never see it! He's always stern. He's not like that at all, he's quite impish."

So maybe we are simply moving CLOSER to the canon and not further away?

Great catch there; I think you've got it spot on.

There are always going to be differing views; I think that part of the problem is that there are a small number of people who feel that they are extra special snowflakes who are entitled to Sherlock exactly as they want it, and if they don't get it exactly as they want it then the heavens must fall.

This rather overlooks the fact that the many millions of people who watch Sherlock and really like it but don't post on the web vastly outnumber the ones who do post online somewhere; it also omits the fact that the media wants to stir up non-existent controversies because it saves journalists from having to actually do their jobs.

As a newcomer to this forum I have been struck by the near total absence of extra special snowflakes; people here simultaneously have lots of fun, defend their corner(s) and don't assume that anyone who disagrees with them is a dastardly villain. People even sometimes change their minds, which is pretty darn amazing!


 

 

January 23, 2014 12:46 pm  #114


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

"As a newcomer to this forum I have been struck by the near total absence of extra special snowflakes; people here simultaneously have lots of fun, defend their corner(s) and don't assume that anyone who disagrees with them is a dastardly villain. People even sometimes change their minds, which is pretty darn amazing!

Well, I'm extra special but more of a nut than a snowflake.


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January 23, 2014 2:04 pm  #115


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

The Doctor wrote:

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:

Everyone has their own interpretation of characters. I never disputed that Sherlock has an emotional side. He does. .... But Sherlock has acted more emotional in Series three than the other two series. He smiles and laughs more. 

Well, as the writers of this show said themselves: "Like Sherlock Holmes laughs all the time in the stories, he's always bursting out laughing, or roaring with laughter, or having a laugh. And Sherlock and Watson in the stories actually laugh together a lot. You never see it! He's always stern. He's not like that at all, he's quite impish."

So maybe we are simply moving CLOSER to the canon and not further away?

I'm sorry to say that I haven't had a chance to read the canon stories, so I don't know them except by just vague details and quotes. The writers have expressed If I remember correctly that this Sherlock will act more like ACD canon. If ACD Sherlock did smile and laugh more, I understand.

Though, the change is still a bit jarring compared to S1 and S2 because of the two year gap. It's fun to watch, but still, it does come out of no way to me. 
 

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (January 23, 2014 2:06 pm)

 

January 23, 2014 2:15 pm  #116


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Canon Sherlock is also far more polite and considerate than "our" Sherlock in S 1 and 2. Moffat and Gatiss stated that they begin with quite a young Sherlock who is going to develop towards a more Canon oriented character.
And I think that especially TSoT shows this transition very well if you look at the very rude beginning of the best man speech which leaves the guests appalled and then compare this to how he proceeds - humble, humorous and loving - even making them cry. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 23, 2014 2:20 pm  #117


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

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January 23, 2014 2:50 pm  #118


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

I think Canon Holmes is polite from our modern point of view - but for someone living in Victorian London, his behavious is actually quite shocking. He tells the King of Bohemia straight in the face that he he is not on the same level as an opera singer of questionable reputation, laughts one of his clients straight in the face, nearly tells another one that his impending arrest is a great thing, shoots the wall out of boredom, complains about Watson's "little sketches", asks him to travel with him on a short notice, is chaotic and can be very blunt towards people who have cought his ire.

 

January 23, 2014 3:21 pm  #119


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Canon Holmes seemed to me a lot softer and opener, with an ironic smile most of the times, quite willing to pull a prank every now and then. But I've only read them in the translation and I've noticed that some of the subtext went missing. 

I just love the way in which they 'socialise' Sherlock and the role that the bond between them plays in it. And his relationship with Mycroft as polar opposite, pulling him the other way. 

 

January 24, 2014 3:10 pm  #120


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Swanpride wrote:

I think Canon Holmes is polite from our modern point of view - but for someone living in Victorian London, his behavious is actually quite shocking. He tells the King of Bohemia straight in the face that he he is not on the same level as an opera singer of questionable reputation, laughts one of his clients straight in the face, nearly tells another one that his impending arrest is a great thing, shoots the wall out of boredom, complains about Watson's "little sketches", asks him to travel with him on a short notice, is chaotic and can be very blunt towards people who have cought his ire.

 
^This. Whenever I hear the argument that Canon Holmes was more polite I always bring up this one. That he is only so by modern standards. He's fairly rude as a young man, just take "A Study in Scarlet", he's obnoxious to Watson, rude, dismissive and arrogant to the police, and unfeeling to the pain of other's. That's why I love ASiP so much, it really captured the way Holmes behaved as a young man but updated it with a behaviour and language so that modern people wouold understand it.
He mellows out a bit as he grows older. One of the reasons I love all of S3 despite the probelms I find there, because they appear to be taking Sherlock along this path.

And yes, Canon Holmes had a lot of humour and the stories all contain a lot of laughs. I think the reason people find it odd in the Sherlock series is that we are not used to seeing it in the dramatised versions, the Brett series was probably the one that came closest but even that one if somewhat off.


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