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January 16, 2014 7:52 pm  #21


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

stoertebeker wrote:

Well, I’m still struggling to come to terms with this “killer-queen-Mary-thing”. But after watching HLV a second time and reflecting the Baker Street scene with Sherlock/John/Mary I think I’ve got an idea about the question why Sherlock forgave Mary for shooting him, why he still trusted and liked her and how the dynamic between the three of them works.

stoertebeker wrote:

John needs, he craves danger, excitement and  adrenaline (look at his restless behavior at the beginning of HLV). Sherlock sensed this instantly when he met John in ASiP.

Yes, and Sherlock craved companionship probably without even realising it. He needed an assistant, but they very soon became friends. John was the only one who would fit in his crazy lifestyle. 

Mary probably did a lot of unusual BAMF things when they started their relationship and that's why John fell for her. 

stoertebeker wrote:

Sherlock told John in HLV that because of his “addiction” for danger he chose Mary (like he chose Sherlock). I think that is exactly the reason why Sherlock liked and trusted Mary right from the beginning. He sensed the same sort of danger, tension, excitement in her as he has with John back then in ASiP. And maybe this unconscious trust is the reason why he never really investigated Mary’s origin.

I think recognising the craving of danger and instant trust and understanding are two different things. I don't think Sherlock is necessarily attracted to danger loving people, those just happen the type of people who 'get' him. Mary got him instantly in the reunion scene, we now know that she probably had to fake her own death as well so she is the only one who understand how hard it is and why people sometimes have to do something so unethical.

Therefore she was naturally inclined to help him and to restore his relationship with John, of course also for John's sake, he probably talked about Sherlock all the time. John's loss may also have been a reason why she was attracted to him, she had to do the same thing for the people she loved so she recognised his pain. 

stoertebeker wrote:

Sherlock might not be a sociopath but he is still a person with an odd way of thinking. For us “normal” people (http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
), it’s hardly comprehensible why Sherlock forgave Mary and why he is still very fond of her (the hug and “That’s my girl.” at the end of HLV). But with the above mentioned aspects in mind his behaviour is much more understandable (at least for me).

They have a deep bond, I think. Not as deep as with John, but still deep and it formed very quickly from that recognition. For some reason he understood her and at the end he understands what it's like to be a murderer. 

Mary really didn't have any other choice than to shoot him. (People have argued otherwise, but that is the in-universe explanation, so I'm going with that.) Who knows who else she was protecting, I guess her backstory is absolutely heroic, though not entirely lawful. 
 

 

January 16, 2014 8:15 pm  #22


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

But if Mary's backstory was

'Absolutely heroic, though not entirely lawful'

how could it possibly have made John not love her? Why should she be prepared to kill to prevent him discovering her absolute heroism, why tell him that he would not love her if he knew?

There is no universe in which that would make sense.

 

January 16, 2014 8:26 pm  #23


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.

 

January 16, 2014 8:35 pm  #24


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.

That.

I believe she is wrong about what John would understand. 
 

 

January 16, 2014 10:04 pm  #25


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

@silver: I am not sure about the heroic but otherwise I agree with you. And as long as we don't really know what she did in her past and who she perhaps killed I try not to judge her.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 10:07 pm  #26


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.

Yeah, I think it's fairly easy to underestimate John, so I suppose she did. Although as his wife she should know him better.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 10:11 pm  #27


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I would be really surprised if Moftiss made her unlikable in the next series. 

Though Moftiss sometimes do that. Surprise. 

 

January 16, 2014 10:33 pm  #28


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

silverblaze wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.

That.

I believe she is wrong about what John would understand. 
 

That is not the same as claiming that Mary's backstory is 'absolutely heroic'. By definition, the use of the term absolutely means that there is no margin for doubt; you cannot then rationally say that whilst it's absolutely heroic a trained soldier would not understand that it was absolutely heroic.

I really don't understand why people want to turn Mary into a heroic figure, unless it's because they don't want to accept that she is what she says she is. She is prepared to kill people who get in her way because what she wants is the only thing that matters to her; she says that herself and there is nothing in her actions to make us doubt it.

She used her wedding to John as an opportunity to schmooze with CAM's secretary; what sort of person uses their own wedding to set up access to murdering someone?
 

 

January 17, 2014 1:27 am  #29


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

There's an interesting saving each other circle going on too..
Sherlock saves John , John saves Sherlock..then TRF , enter Mary who saves John who then saves Sherlock (not shooting to kill), and then Sherlock saves Mary.....jeeez
Sherlock with John we see the relationship go from logical ...to logical and emotional by the TRF. Sherlock with Mary is the same , he doesn't like/dislike her at first , she is clever and interesting,  but by the end of HLV it is again both i think, his emotions for John tie him emotionally to Mary .
He shoots Magnusson both cos it's the logical and emotional thing to do.

Sherlock can forgive Mary because he relates to turning off the emotions to get the job done, thats what he does. He can be unemotional about it.
The Sherlock Mary tie is more logical/sensical , but both of their ties to John are all about emotions.
John has much more trouble forgiving Mary because he is emotional about it , in the end he doesn't seem to face it , burns it in the fire and moves on.

I think ultimately John will have to face what he burnt in the fire , and while that looks dodgy for Mary and John in the future. It won't effect the Sherlock ties.
To get what we want....
The kid is looked after by a bad a mother.
John is free to go adventuring with Sherlock.
Maybe as this is a modernised version , and to get out of unhappy/not working marriage s we could get a divorce in the future, wasn't an option for Doyle but is now maybe.
I don't like Mary personally , but I don't want to see an overly sentimental melodramatic death scene/episode.
Then they can all do as Sherlock does...logical sensible thing.

Last edited by lil (January 17, 2014 1:35 am)

 

January 17, 2014 1:55 am  #30


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Who says that Mary would be a bad mother?

 

January 17, 2014 2:05 am  #31


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Swanpride wrote:

Who says that Mary would be a bad mother?

 
Not me...I say bad a.., as in bad A.

Can i say bamf?:-)

Last edited by lil (January 17, 2014 2:06 am)

 

January 17, 2014 2:25 am  #32


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Oh, okay...that one I agree with.

 

January 17, 2014 3:53 am  #33


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I think Sherlock respect's Mary's abilities. In the plot of the story regarding Mary trying to kill CAM. There are 4 options she can take when she has the gun pointed at CAM:

1. Mary can take out both CAM and Sherlock. Can't kill Sherlock without hurting John.
2. She can't just take out CAM- John becomes a suspect.
3. She can't hit CAM and let Sherlock walk free to tell John (giving more power to CAM over Sherlock, John, and Mary). CAM would see weakness and vulnerability in her inaction.

Please note it is the 4th option that allows Mary to almost distract CAM from thinking she can be used against SHERLOCK. That is why CAM is STILL MANEUVERING to get ahold of something over Mycroft.  Mary "Killing" Sherlock- breaks the chain of pressure points.

4th option-slide a bullet in right below the lung and call 911. CAM realizes just what kind of naughty girl she is-what she will do if pressed. i.e. kill even her husband's best friend.

As Sherlock says,"It was surgery" Not only in where Mary placed the bullet but how she broke a chain of pressure points.  Mary would just kill Sherlock if it meant John was going to be used-hence the attempted murder. She had to make it close so CAM would buy into this.  Mary is clever.

Now as for how this works for the trio of the relationship. You see how now Sherlock can forgive her. She in essence tried to remove John from being used to hurt Sherlock.  Sherlock recognizes her attempt and salutes it.


 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sherlock Holmes, "Perfectly sound analysis but I was hoping you'd go deeper."
 

January 17, 2014 4:25 am  #34


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I think Sherlock and Mary's relationship is not as it seems. I think Sherlock must know by now exactly who Mary is, and most likely has read the contents of the memory stick.  I have doubts about the 'Mary called the ambulance and deliberately only shot me to wound me not kill me scenario' Sherlock told John. I think Sherlock is deliberately manipulating things to get John to stay with Mary. I am not sure why this is, perhaps to protect John somehow ? 
I think the handshake scene before Sherlock gets on the plane is telling. He asks for a private moment with John! without Mary. if it was a true trio, why would he do this? I am not convinced that Sherlock's apparent fondness for Mary is real. We know Sherlock is very capable of maintaining a facade in a relationship (look at poor Janine) I am not sure of his motives here, but am convinced the Sherlock Mary relationship is not a genuine one.


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"You can always tell a good Chinese place by examining the bottom third of the door handle"
 

January 17, 2014 9:53 am  #35


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

I think Sherlock and Mary's relationship is not as it seems. I think Sherlock must know by now exactly who Mary is, and most likely has read the contents of the memory stick. I have doubts about the 'Mary called the ambulance and deliberately only shot me to wound me not kill me scenario' Sherlock told John. I think Sherlock is deliberately manipulating things to get John to stay with Mary. I am not sure why this is, perhaps to protect John somehow ?
I think the handshake scene before Sherlock gets on the plane is telling. He asks for a private moment with John! without Mary. if it was a true trio, why would he do this? I am not convinced that Sherlock's apparent fondness for Mary is real. We know Sherlock is very capable of maintaining a facade in a relationship (look at poor Janine) I am not sure of his motives here, but am convinced the Sherlock Mary relationship is not a genuine one.

I almost hope you're right about this because no matter how many explanations I read (and some of them are excellent) Sherlock forgiving and trusting Mary just doesn't feel right to me. Nothing to do with Johnlock either, it just feels like a very odd reaction to someone who inflicted a very serious injury on you.  Sherlock may call it surgery, but it nearly killed him. To say nothing of the trauma and phyisical pain, or of the anguish it must have caused everyone who cared about him. And he forgives her? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me.

Last edited by Aytoun (January 17, 2014 9:55 am)

 

January 17, 2014 9:58 am  #36


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Aytoun wrote:

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

I think Sherlock and Mary's relationship is not as it seems. I think Sherlock must know by now exactly who Mary is, and most likely has read the contents of the memory stick. I have doubts about the 'Mary called the ambulance and deliberately only shot me to wound me not kill me scenario' Sherlock told John. I think Sherlock is deliberately manipulating things to get John to stay with Mary. I am not sure why this is, perhaps to protect John somehow ?
I think the handshake scene before Sherlock gets on the plane is telling. He asks for a private moment with John! without Mary. if it was a true trio, why would he do this? I am not convinced that Sherlock's apparent fondness for Mary is real. We know Sherlock is very capable of maintaining a facade in a relationship (look at poor Janine) I am not sure of his motives here, but am convinced the Sherlock Mary relationship is not a genuine one.

I almost hope you're right about this because no matter how many explanations I read (and some of them are excellent) Sherlock forgiving and trusting Mary just doesn't feel right to me. Nothing to do with Johnlock either, it just feels like a very odd reaction to someone who inflicted a very serious injury on you.  Sherlock may call it surgery, but it nearly killed him. To say nothing of the trauma and phyisical pain, or of the anguish it must have caused everyone who cared about him. And he forgives her? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me.

I have the same feeling.

And it would make perfect since from Mofftiss' point of view, too: giving as a false sense of security that everything is "alright" now, everybody forgave everybody, everybody is everybody's best friend etc., only to shatter that illusion in the next series.


The Game is On!
 

January 17, 2014 1:16 pm  #37


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Willow wrote:

I really don't understand why people want to turn Mary into a heroic figure, unless it's because they don't want to accept that she is what she says she is. She is prepared to kill people who get in her way because what she wants is the only thing that matters to her; she says that herself and there is nothing in her actions to make us doubt it.

I agree. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? So far we have nothing to go on to assume that what she did in her past was heroic. Quite the opposite, if we believe her words - and why shouldn't we? She's convinced that John will not love her anymore once he knows about her past.

About that circle of saving each other: to complete this circle I would say that Mary would have to save someone more 'actively' than she did so far (and let's not forget that she shot Sherlock...). Which could mean that in S4 she will save John or/and Sherlock and who knows, maybe that will be a situation which will turn out deadly to her. I can't imagine that Moftiss will keep her forever, and IMO this could be a very 'positive' way for her to go.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

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"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 17, 2014 1:31 pm  #38


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I would appriciate that but I am not sure that will happen. I listened to the Empire Podcast interview with Moftiss yesterday. It seems they are very fond about the character Mary and also proud about the story twist they did with her. So it might be possible that she'll stay at the series for longer. On the other hand with Moftiss you'll never know.

Last edited by stoertebeker (January 17, 2014 6:07 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
     Thread Starter
 

January 17, 2014 1:47 pm  #39


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

stoertebeker wrote:

It seems they are very fond about the character May and also proud about the story twist they did with her.

Now, that "story twist" makes me kind of laugh. If I remember correctly, most of us suspected from very early on that something about her is off and that she might even turn out to be a "bad girl". I certainly didn't see it coming in all detail, but nevertheless I wasn't really surprised when the person who threatened CAM in HLV turned out to be Mary.
Anyway, I'm not surprised they are very fond of her as a character. And it'll certainly be interesting to see what they will do with her in S4 - with her and the baby. Something has to happen, because to be honest I just can't see a baby in the show.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

http://picload.org/image/lcpldgo/berlinsigneu2.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgc/berlinsigneu3.jpghttp://picload.org/image/lcpldgw/berlinsigneu.jpghttp://picload.org/image/wcodogr/jungssignatur.jpg

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 17, 2014 2:45 pm  #40


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

SolarSystem wrote:

stoertebeker wrote:

It seems they are very fond about the character May and also proud about the story twist they did with her.

Now, that "story twist" makes me kind of laugh. If I remember correctly, most of us suspected from very early on that something about her is off and that she might even turn out to be a "bad girl". I certainly didn't see it coming in all detail, but nevertheless I wasn't really surprised when the person who threatened CAM in HLV turned out to be Mary.
Anyway, I'm not surprised they are very fond of her as a character. And it'll certainly be interesting to see what they will do with her in S4 - with her and the baby. Something has to happen, because to be honest I just can't see a baby in the show.

 
Yes, not exactly a huge surprise about Mary but the character provided wonderful opportunities for Moftiss to write melodramatic dialogue, which they love doing; that was incredibly useful because Moriarty, melodramatic supremo of this or any other century, was dead. Or at least officially dead.

So I can certainly see why they are fond of the character; now, however, she presents problems. You can't have two characters competing for the title of best drama queen in the galaxy, and you cannot distract attention from Sherlock, who is, after all, the hero who is going to get us out from under whatever hideous plots Moftiss have devised.

I certainly expect to see a lot of Watson, not only because it's integral to the canon but also because the actor is not going to take a role which substantially diminishes his importance; Martin Freeman has his career to think about. So Mary is going to have to go, in one way or another; I can't see Moftiss dispatching her to suburban bliss because they don't do that sort of thing. It really would be boring, unlike scaling skyscrapers to climb in through non-existent windows in order to not shoot CAM.

So, suburban bliss is out which leaves us, to be fair, with quite a large field...

 

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