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January 16, 2014 2:23 pm  #1


The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Well, I’m still struggling to come to terms with this “killer-queen-Mary-thing”. But after watching HLV a second time and reflecting the Baker Street scene with Sherlock/John/Mary I think I’ve got an idea about the question why Sherlock forgave Mary for shooting him, why he still trusted and liked her and how the dynamic between the three of them works. I like to try to elaborate this a bit. I was unsure were to but this as it contains aspects of several other discussions regarding Sherlock’s, Mary’s and John’s behaviour. Therefore I opened a new thread. I hope, you don’t mind.

Right from the beginning Sherlock and Mary got along fairly good which each other which seems a bit odd considering Sherlock’s reaction towards John’s girlfriends in series 1 and 2. One reason might be that he tried to behave for John’s sake. But I think that’s not the only reason. The scene at Baker Street in HLV between the three showed some really important psychological facts about Sherlock and John. The more I think about this scene the more brilliant I find it! Sherlock pointed out John’s “addiction” to adrenaline and that he needs danger in his life. In that context Sherlock’s sentence in TEH “What life, I’ve been away.” makes so much more sense. It wasn’t a snidely remark about John not being able to live on his own. No, it was just a fact. John needs, he craves danger, excitement and  adrenaline (look at his restless behavior at the beginning of HLV). Sherlock sensed this instantly when he met John in ASiP. After Lestrade consulted him with the suicide case, Sherlock asked John, whom he knows only for a few minutes at that time, to accompany him to a crime scene and involving him in his work. And John followed. He chose Sherlock because he sensed the danger with him. BUT it was the same the other way round! Sherlock chose John as well because he felt the connection between them, the craving for danger and that they would be ideal counterparts for each other.

Sherlock told John in HLV that because of his “addiction” for danger he chose Mary (like he chose Sherlock). I think that is exactly the reason why Sherlock liked and trusted Mary right from the beginning. He sensed the same sort of danger, tension, excitement in her as he has with John back then in ASiP. And maybe this unconscious trust is the reason why he never really investigated Mary’s origin.
Amanda said in one interview that Sherlock and Mary see a lot of themselves in the other one. Now, with this episode and Mary’s background this statement makes a lot of sense. Mary and Sherlock are both people with extraordinary abilities, with unusual life stories and broken personalities. And they both share the same goal: keeping John safe. Sherlock knows that sometimes desperate measures are necessary to protect those people you care for (TRF).

Sherlock might not be a sociopath but he is still a person with an odd way of thinking. For us “normal” people (http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
), it’s hardly comprehensible why Sherlock forgave Mary and why he is still very fond of her (the hug and “That’s my girl.” at the end of HLV). But with the above mentioned aspects in mind his behaviour is much more understandable (at least for me). And I suppose in a similar way this also applies for John’s behaviour (it just took him a bit longer to realize – he is after all the most normal one of the three http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png
).

I am still not quite happy about what they made of Mary because with her secret agent past she is not a background character any more. She has been raised on the same level as Sherlock and John and I am not sure how this should work out and we don’t really need two Sherlock’s in the show. But we’ll see. I have faith in Moftiss that they will come up with a lot of clever ideas and plot twists again.

I’m not sure whether I could made my point of view understandable. It’s quite hard to argue in a foreign language. But I hope I could give you an idea in what direction my train of thoughts went. This is IMO a very good example of series overlapping psychological development of the characters. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 16, 2014 2:49 pm  #2


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Hello! I pretty much agree with you. Sherlock forgave Mary quite easily because he understands her and probably thinks he would have done the same in her situation. 
I don't see Sherlock and Mary as the same. Sherlock is on higher intelectual level although Mary has other skills that make up for it. 
John IS the most normal of them all... which should be scary if it wasn't so fun (for us)

 

January 16, 2014 3:00 pm  #3


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I believe in the Moftiss!

They're totally capable of creating a character that is both ethical and an assassin. Ethical people who kill happen all the time in fiction, take for example James Bond. Whether people will like it or not is another thing, people seem to be determined to hate her. 

Someone here mentioned The Valley of Fear and I thought that'd be a great backstory for Mary. The protagonist is an American agent who faked his own death after eliminating a gang of miner thugs.

This is fiction and it's not our real world. I find it rather strange that people are capable of suspending disbelief on the 2.5 metre assassin called the Golem, the deduction superpowers and Mycroft omnipotence, but not on the assassin wife.  

I think people just want it to be the Sherlock and John show, and dislike anything that might change that dynamic. I disagree. New things must happen or it'll get boring, they might grow apart a bit, it might become a bit more of an ensemble show. I'd really prefer that. Otherwise the show would have to rever to the 'baddy of the week' format. I don't see that working for something that airs once every two years. 

 

January 16, 2014 3:09 pm  #4


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

stoertebeker, I really like your idea how the "which life?" line correlates to John's addiction to excitement and danger. You nailed it.

I have to admit though, that you explanation on why Sherlock forgave Mary so easily didn't convince me,I'm afraid. Why does the fact that you see a similar personality in someone else makes you trust them? For example, Moriarty is quite similar as Sherlock, too. This doesn't make him trust him. Not at all. And the idea that made Sherlock come back to life was "John Watson is in danger". Which danger? I assume being married to a killer. But for some reason Sherlock re-evaluated later on. Why? I don't know.


The Game is On!
 

January 16, 2014 3:15 pm  #5


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

This is a really good way of seeing it.

however, Mary has ruined it a bit for me so I hope we can go back to the 2 protagonists - I don't want a trio.

 

January 16, 2014 3:29 pm  #6


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

silverblaze, I agree. I also got the feeling that this is more about "I don't want my bromance broken up!" than about Mary in itself. It was bound to happen, I guess, but it makes me really sad, because honestly, it is so difficult to add a love interest to a show. The first two episodes, the writers did a good job, because they made Mary likable. But in the third one, they did an outstanding job by elevation her from the love interest to a layered character in her own right. They deserve all the praise of the world for that.

To me, the interaction makes sense. If there is one person in the world who would understand Mary, it's Sherlock. Yes, she lied to him. Partly for selfish reason but also to protect him. And she was wrong to marry him without telling him the truth, but it is understandable.

And what did Sherlock? He lied to John. Partly in order to protect him, but he caused him unbelievable pain for two years. If there is anyone who would understand Mary is is him.

John forgave Sherlock, partly because Mary intervened on his behalf. So he now returned the favour and intervened on her behalf. They are connected in their love for John.

I want to keep Mary. I like the new dynamic. I would love to explore it a little bit more. I will celebrate every single episode she survives.

 

January 16, 2014 3:29 pm  #7


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Ozma wrote:

This is a really good way of seeing it.

however, Mary has ruined it a bit for me so I hope we can go back to the 2 protagonists - I don't want a trio.

Agree wholeheartedly!!!!!


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

January 16, 2014 3:32 pm  #8


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I don't think it will become a trio if she sticks around. I think it will be more of an ensemble thing. The show is moving in that direction anyway with the appearance of Mycroft, Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson and Anderson. 

 

January 16, 2014 3:35 pm  #9


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

I agree...and I honestly don't mind. As much as I love the dynamic between John and Sherlock, it won't change anytime soon. It will always be the same. Adding more characters to the mix is spicing things up a little bit. This season was already largely about the relationship between Mycroft and Sherlock. But I see nobody voting for killing off Mycroft because he interrupts the bromance.

Last edited by Swanpride (January 16, 2014 3:36 pm)

 

January 16, 2014 3:38 pm  #10


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

silverblaze wrote:

I don't think it will become a trio if she sticks around. I think it will be more of an ensemble thing. The show is moving in that direction anyway with the appearance of Mycroft, Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson and Anderson. 

I don't see it this way because none of the mentioned above is such a go-between as the figure of mary up to now. They are all brilliant supporting cast but no more. I can't see how a wife of one of the leads can go back levels with the supporting cast, especially when given so much room in series 3. Too much for my likes...


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

http://picload.org/image/lcowadi/osajrand2.jpg
 

January 16, 2014 3:48 pm  #11


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Please can we just not discuss the impact of Mary in the series here? There are other threads for that. I think the basic intention of this thread, working out the John-Sherlock-Mary relationship as it appears now, is quite interesting.


The Game is On!
 

January 16, 2014 3:49 pm  #12


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Mary was a killer, stopped it for whatever reason and is pregnant. In S4 she may as well stay at home, take care of the baby and let John and Sherlock be "sexy". 
Mrs Hudson is kind of a badass, too, but never joins them during their adventures.
I don't understand why people don't want Mary along anymore when nobody really can know, yet, what Mofftiss will do with her!? IMO right now it is NOT a trio. So what's the problem??


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

January 16, 2014 3:54 pm  #13


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

NOOOO, don't kill Mycroft!!! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


Sorry, I'm obsessed with that character. 

mrshouse: stop worrying about the bromance. It'll be fine. Moftiss are both married and they still seem to have a bromance thing together. Pretty sure they can write one too. Mary Morstan in the canon doesn't influence the bromance either. 

Personally I want to see it changed. I'm getting a bit fed up with the dynamics between the two, it's starting to get repetitive. 

 

January 16, 2014 3:55 pm  #14


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Marva wrote:

Please can we just not discuss the impact of Mary in the series here? There are other threads for that. I think the basic intention of this thread, working out the John-Sherlock-Mary relationship as it appears now, is quite interesting.

Thanks! I would like to keep the moral discussion about Mary in the respective thread.


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 4:10 pm  #15


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

stoertebeker wrote:

Marva wrote:

Please can we just not discuss the impact of Mary in the series here? There are other threads for that. I think the basic intention of this thread, working out the John-Sherlock-Mary relationship as it appears now, is quite interesting.

Thanks! I would like to keep the moral discussion about Mary in the respective thread.

I'm happy to comply but how can you discuss their relationship without discussing her impact on the show? And the way people feel about the bromance and how she changes that dynamic? They're all intertwined. 
 

 

January 16, 2014 4:11 pm  #16


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

"This is fiction and it's not our real world. I find it rather strange that people are capable of suspending disbelief on the 2.5 metre assassin called the Golem, the deduction superpowers and Mycroft omnipotence, but not on the assassin wife."

This made me laugh out loud.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

January 16, 2014 4:13 pm  #17


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

No, there are two things:

what DID happen (e.g. why did Sherlock forgive her), and what do you THINK about that (e.g. I don't like that Sherlock forgave her so easily).

And if you mix these things up everybody gets just emotional.


The Game is On!
 

January 16, 2014 4:18 pm  #18


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Marva wrote:

No, there are two things:

what DID happen (e.g. why did Sherlock forgive her), and what do you THINK about that (e.g. I don't like that Sherlock forgave her so easily).

And if you mix these things up everybody gets just emotional.

That's why I felt the need to point it out. 
 

 

January 16, 2014 4:20 pm  #19


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

well after we figured out what actually happened I agree to evaluate that. But I'd like to stick to the facts first. Please.


The Game is On!
 

January 16, 2014 5:04 pm  #20


Re: The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary - an attempt at explanation

Well, for 4 minutes there was no relationship between Sherlock, John and Mary; Sherlock genuinely thought he would never see them again.

Those 4 minutes are where Sherlock distances himself, literally, from everyone and everywhere he loves; having said goodbye he is looking down, for one last time, at the green and pleasant land of Blake's hymn.

We really have no idea whatsoever of what the relationship between Sherlock, John and Mary in the future will be like, based on this season, because the writers have chosen to decisively break the chain; there can be no going back to a humdrum chug a lug life where John inspects people's bunions, Mary gives people their flu jabs and Sherlock solves a few cases here and there.

It doesn't matter whether Moriarty is real or not; someone is capable of an apparently impossible technical feat which puts the fear of God into anyone with any sense. England needs Sherlock, in England, and John has a very good idea of what it is like to be on the receiving end of a psychopathic rampage. I cannot see him deciding to forgive and forget the guy who wrapped him up in explosives, or anyone clever enough to make it seem that they are Moriarty, and when he signed up to serve Queen and Country back in his Army days it didn't include an 'unless my wife is pregnant' clause.

'His Last Bow' is about patriotism, or love of country, however you wish to express it; we know where Sherlock and John Watson stand. We don't know where Mary stands, but on the information we have so far it is unlikely to be alongside them; once the plane turned back all bets are off...

I

 

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