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January 6, 2014 7:57 pm  #1


And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Was it just me or did anyone else find Tom's "meat dagger" hypothesis completely weird ? (but also really funny)


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January 6, 2014 10:00 pm  #2


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Yeah, that was pretty funny. Especially when Molly was embarrassed and made him sit down. He seems like a bit of an idiot, bless him. And isn't a "meat dagger" some kind of sexual innuendo as well...? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/embarrassed.png


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January 6, 2014 10:03 pm  #3


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

It reminded me of "eXistenZ"

 

January 6, 2014 10:12 pm  #4


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

And isn't a "meat dagger" some kind of sexual innuendo as well...? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/embarrassed.png

Well if it wasn't before it sure is now. OMG I did not need that visual! haha

I loved Molly sticking him with a fork and then grimacing apologetically, but not where he could see lmao


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January 7, 2014 6:26 am  #5


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Tee Hee.


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March 8, 2014 3:24 pm  #6


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I forget where I read this, but maybe  Tom was in competition with Sherlock, so to speak. He felt Molly was still hung up on Sherlock, and wanted to prove he was "just as good" in the same way? Molly does seem a bit preoccupied with Sherlock, but then again, he's got the floor.

In HLV, when Molly goes off on Sherlock, and he responds with, "I'm sorry your engagement is broken," obviously he thinks that that's at the root of the anger she's got built up.

But I wonder if (and I just thought of this), she noticed his flirtation with Janine at the wedding, and that also played a role in her getting so angry at him? After all of this time of his being nicer to her, then he suddenly takesn an interest in another (sexy) woman.

 

March 8, 2014 3:30 pm  #7


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I really don't think Molly is that vindictive.
She just genuiely loves Sherlock and can't bear him letting himself down...


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March 8, 2014 3:51 pm  #8


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Yeah, that was pretty funny. Especially when Molly was embarrassed and made him sit down. He seems like a bit of an idiot, bless him. And isn't a "meat dagger" some kind of sexual innuendo as well...? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/embarrassed.png

Haha, yep that was hilarious. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/lol.png
 I thought it was an innuendo, but then I´m no native, I can´t be sure (maybe it´s just my brain in the gutter ^^).

That moment was probably the beginning of the end of their relationship..

 

March 9, 2014 1:12 pm  #9


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I did get the innuendo myself... I always giggle about this!

I think Molly might not have noticed it herself but she ended up finding herself a Sherlock look-alike and that 'Meat-dagger' thing might have made her realize he wasn't good enough for her.

It's common with some women who have unrecruited love for a man to seek out a look alike... 


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March 9, 2014 7:35 pm  #10


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Isn't it funny that suddenly some characters look a lot like others or remind us of others? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png

 

March 9, 2014 8:55 pm  #11


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I thought Janine looked (and in some ways acted) like Irene. I'm not sure she was as much of a game-player though...there's no indication she was spying on him for CAM or anything...she may just have been excited to be hooking up with a celebrity. 

But that scene with Molly and Tom: Molly is the one acting...I don't want to keep tossing around words like 'sociopathic' but she's the one who does the really nasty (painful) thing. I don't see why deserves it. It's like Molly doesn't want him to upstage Sherlock.

 

March 12, 2014 8:07 pm  #12


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I thought Janine looked (and in some ways acted) like Irene. I'm not sure she was as much of a game-player though...there's no indication she was spying on him for CAM or anything...she may just have been excited to be hooking up with a celebrity. 

But that scene with Molly and Tom: Molly is the one acting...I don't want to keep tossing around words like 'sociopathic' but she's the one who does the really nasty (painful) thing. I don't see why deserves it. It's like Molly doesn't want him to upstage Sherlock.

I wouldn't say sociopathic, but-- I gotta say, I was dissapointed in the way they handled Molly's character this season-- it seemed like for the most part, our lovely , sweet, geeky girl was gone....

Instead, they made her a little pathetic, with finding Tom, the Sherlock substitute, and then she tries to rub Sherlock's nose in it by telling him that she and Tom have lots of sex; she comes along on a case, and can't really handle it, and then she's rather shrewish to poor Tom, who doesn't deserve to be treated that way.

It broke my heart. I would have loved to see her truly come back into her own. 

 

March 13, 2014 6:29 am  #13


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Really, you think it has been a bad development for Molly's character last season???

To me it feels a bit as if she has finally grown up. She finally realised that her and Sherlock was never gonna happen and tried to find someone else, good on her. I always thought Tom was rather the weak one, dressing up like Sherlock in order to impress her. All together it seemed to me that in this relationship she was rather the boss with Tom following along. Certainly not a perfect fit, but at least a start for her.

During the first two seasons I really liked her, but I felt sorry for her all the time, staring doe-eyed at Sherlock and letting him humiliate her all the time, it was painful to behold (except for when she stood up to him for the first time when they celebrated Christmas at Baker Street)
I am so proud of her now. She had so many strong BAMF moments in series 3. I wouldn't have wanted to be the woman that she was through most of the first two series, but now she has turned into someone to look up to.

I laughed so hard when Tom brought up the meat dagger thing and most of all when Molly forced him to sit down again, the mortified look on her face. To me he just seems plain dopey.


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March 13, 2014 8:47 am  #14


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Honestly, if I was a writer of Sherlock I would cease from writing female characters completely. I noticed that no matter what female character the writers introduce to us, they are always criticised for their choises.
 
There is a nice oriental tale from Central Asia in which an old man and his young son travel through the country at the back of a mule. Everytime they pass a group of people they are heavily criticised: people complain that the poor mule must carry too much weight with two people on its back. So the young boy jumps down and travels on foot. This time people complain that the old man is a brute, sitting comfortably in the saddle while his young son sweats. So the father and the son change places and a young one is now sitting on the mule. Big mistake! People are sneering now that the boy has no manners, letting his old father stumble on foot while he rides the mule comfortably. So the boy jumps down again and they both walk leading the mule with them. The people then laught that they are both stupid - it′s such a hot day and they have a mule with them, why do they walk and not ride? The father and his son then take the mule on their shoulders and carry it home – they must resort to an absurd solution because there′s no other way how to please their critics.
 
It′s the same with women in Sherlock.
 
Molly is a nice and pretty normal, sympathetic girl with a crush such girls often have? She is a bad role model because she allows a man to deride her.
 
So Molly is changed to a BAMF. But instead of being happy people now complain that she is too violent and out of character and that they want old Molly back.
 
Sally Donovan is quite competent and self-confident policewoman, she just doesn′t like Sherlock. She is immediately castigated as being bitchy.
 
People are dissing Sherlock for having no strong female characters. Enters Irene Adler who is inteligent, elegant and oozes aggressive strenght and charm while also having no fear to use her body and has a provocative physical appeal. Oh no, she is all wrong because she doesn′t fit into the mold of some politically correct woman image.
 
So Mary Morstan is written into the show – funny, likeable, self-sufficient and friendly to Sherlock. She is dismissed as a „Mary Sue“.
 
Then tables turn and Mary Morstan is revealed to be a dangerous and calculating former assassin. She is designated as being a wasted opportunity.
 
Really, there is no way to please the audience, is it? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png

 


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March 13, 2014 8:55 am  #15


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I agree with you. Well said. The only exception seems to be Mrs Hudson so far.
I really like their variety of female characters and also the fact that they do not have to fit into some clichéd role models. They do not have to be skinny or young or fulfill clichéd ideals of beauty. 


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March 13, 2014 10:18 am  #16


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I like Molly and have said before on here that she was never "weak" - people sometimes confuse kindness with weakness, but I don't; I always saw Molly as a sweet, kind character who just happens to be hopelessly in love with Sherlock.
I think the strong inner core was always there, and don't think the writers needed to hammer that point home by having her slap people or stick forks in them!
My feeling is with these things that if we wouldn't be comfortable seeing a male character do something like that to a  female, then we should be equally uncomfortable when it happens the other way around.
I've already said elsewhere what my problems with Mary and Irene were, but what I will repeat is that you can be absolutely brilliant writers - which Moftiss undoubtedly are, but it doesn't mean that you'll get absolutely everything right, or that you'll please absolutely everyone all of the time


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
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March 13, 2014 12:54 pm  #17


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Double standard applies anyway and it never bothers people when male characters are on screen:

 When Benedict Cumberbatch traipses through Buckingham Palace in sheet and shows more naked skin that Irene Adler to the audience, nobody complains. Lara Pulver appears naked and suddenly it′s „misogynic“ and „sexist“. 

Similarly, when Sherlock is injected with ketamine, whipped and then captured on video by Lestrade while being unconcious, it′s played for laughs. Imagine if female character would be shown in similar condition or captured on video in such a helpless state by her male colleague. It would cause a riot. 

It′s fully allright to show Anderson as batshit crazy. If Donovan was treated the same way the people would be seething and they would accuse writers of being racist and hateful towards women. 

Both Moriarty and Mary Morstan harm Sherlock and send him to his death. Moriarty is loved for it while Mary is abhored. 

So why should it be different with Molly pitching Tom with a fork? He embarassed her in front of wedding guests and that was her way to silence him quickly. Altrough I never percieved her original form as weak, it′s not bad she grew to be more feisty in two years – that doesn′t mean she somehow became „wrong“. She is just not the same person who stuttered in awe while looking at Sherlock as if he was some unapproachable idol carved from alabaster towering over her on stone pedestal. She shares a secret with Sherlock now, she saw him in distress while being able to competently help him, she realised her own self-worth and cannot be ordered around like she was previously. She also comprehends now that Sherlock is human too and with that understanding, their friendship deepened – you cannot be a real friend with a stone idol, can you?

 Her boasting about her successful sex life is nothing new either, she did the same thing in „The Great Game“ when she introduced „Jim from IT“ to Sherlock with the sole purpose of making him jealous. If anything, it shows that underneath all this, in her essence, she is still Molly Hooper we know. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

Last edited by nakahara (March 13, 2014 12:55 pm)


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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March 13, 2014 1:34 pm  #18


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

I can only speak for myself but
- I didn't really see the need to have Sherlock OR Irene naked (didn't like SiB anyway - my least favourite episode)
- I think this is the point I was trying to make? It wouldn't have been funny if a woman had been drugged and whipped; I didn't think it was funny that Sherlock was either - I hated that scene.
- can't comment on Donovan and Anderson - I don't think too much fuss has been made of Donovan calling Sherlock "freak" though, whereas I'm not sure how a male detective using that name for a woman would go down.
- I didn't "like" Moriarty - I suppose people see him slightly differently from Mary though because he was always a villain of the piece. With Mary it was as though she let people down when she did what she did.
Also, Moriarty, in a sense, got his come uppance whereas Mary appears to have got away with it.
- I'm not questioning Molly's friendship for Sherlock, or saying I don't like her - I think sticking a fork in your Boyfriend's hand is never a good move though!
I just don't happen to believe that being strong means being cold towards people, or physically abusive, or sexually provocative (although on that last point, I'm referring to Irene's character, not Molly's. She's always used the tactic of trying to make Sherlock jealous, I agree)

I've never seen Molly as weak though, she always had an inner strength and Sherlock has always known that; he saw beyond her crush on him to the person she is; if she wasn't an intelligent, strong character, he'd never have bothered with her.
I agree there are many examples of double standards on TV, some you have to give some leeway to or you'd never have anything to watch, but some. IMO, are unacceptable.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

March 13, 2014 2:42 pm  #19


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Oh, I was not trying to attack your personal opinions about the show or about the characters. There was nothing wrong with your assessment that we should′t treat people badly if we find it unacceptable to see other people in similar situations.
 
I was really just pointing out that general audience discriminates between men and women on screen and it does not bother them to see men being treated more roughly than women. It′s sad but it′s true.
 
I also don′t condone violence in such shows being shown for the sake of violence. Still, I understand that sometimes it′s necessary for the writers to use such things to make a point.
 
Irene Adler, for example, revealed her nasty nature with an attack on Sherlock. It would be hard to introduce her as a menace if she behaved in a nice and polite manner.
 
Donovan was written as Sherlock′s antagonist and her calling him „freak“ was the easiest way for the writers to made her like that without forcing her to cause some real harm to Sherlock. Her behaviour would be unprofessional and unacceptable in real life.
 
I don′t think it was an intention of the writers to present such people as strong. They made it no secret that those characters are deeply flawed. But they had too little time in the show to portray a more subtle development of their characters. Therefore they applied such „violent“ shortcuts to create a dramatic conflict around which the action in the show is built.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

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March 13, 2014 4:27 pm  #20


Re: And speaking about sociopaths... Molly's fiance

Sorry if I seemed overly defensive
You make some good and balanced points - it's just the portrayal of women behaving violently towards men as being somehow acceptable or even funny, is a particular beef of mine and it's one area where I wish the writers of Sherlock wouldn't go
I know your point is a much broader one than that, though.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

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