BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Too many references?

NiTeLight · January 2, 2014 11:51 pm

I enjoy references. It's fun to pick them out and I squeal every time I see a cinematic tip of the hat. It's wonderful that Moffit and Gatiss pay so much attention to their fans, and I love that they included nods to various theories, fan desires (kiss with Molly, almost kiss with Moriarty), and the original stories... but it seems that almost every scene had (or revolved around) a nod to one thing or another. It got to the point where it was laughable (as in ludicrous) and I thought it was too much, even though each individual reference was enjoyable to watch. What do you think of all the references? Does anyone else feel like they over did it?

sirlockofthesher · January 3, 2014 12:39 am

yes. after a while it got very annoying. Like the fans weren't be soluted but laughed at. Reminiscent of the q and a after the premiere.

kete · January 3, 2014 8:40 am

Absolutely! In my eyes they wasted one entire precious episode out of only three on fan wank. There's a difference between that and a clever nod of the head in our direction and for me they completely overdid it.

But with regard to the BFI incident: they set themselves up for it, I think, now that I've seen the episode. When they reference the fandom like that - even including a Sherlock/Jim reference! - they shouldn't wonder when a journalist like CM does the same. Inappropriate though it was I can now understand why she thought it would be okay.

tobeornot221b · January 3, 2014 8:49 am

I'm a fan and I don't feel laughed at by the authors.
Just saying.
TEH - a retrospective justification of CM's behaviour at the BFI? Come on, you can't be serious!

SusiGo · January 3, 2014 8:57 am

kete wrote:
Absolutely! In my eyes they wasted one entire precious episode out of only three on fan wank. There's a difference between that and a clever nod of the head in our direction and for me they completely overdid it.

But with regard to the BFI incident: they set themselves up for it, I think, now that I've seen the episode. When they reference the fandom like that - even including a Sherlock/Jim reference! - they shouldn't wonder when a journalist like CM does the same. Inappropriate though it was I can now understand why she thought it would be okay.

Kete, I let it pass last time but now I would ask you not to use the word "fan wank". I think it is inappropriate.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 3, 2014 8:57 am)

sj4iy · January 3, 2014 8:58 am

sirlockofthesher wrote:
yes. after a while it got very annoying. Like the fans weren't be soluted but laughed at. Reminiscent of the q and a after the premiere.

Oh, please. Apples to oranges. The writers laugh at themselves, the actors and the stories all the time. If they can't have a little fun by poking at the fans, too, then we are being way too serious about it. Having fun with various out-there theories is absolutely nothing like using a fan fiction author's work without permission for the purposes of embarrassing her and the people who read it. If nothing else, it simply shows how much the creative minds behind Sherlock love their fans to include them into their story. They haven't gone overboard in any way. I can always laugh at myself; after all, I don't know anyone else that spent days re-watching TRF and even building little models out of toys to try to figure out how he did it. Of course that's an absurd thing to do...it's a tv show. If the writers decided to mirror that in their show, then how is it ''making fun"?

Last edited by sj4iy (January 3, 2014 9:01 am)

Mattlocked · January 3, 2014 9:01 am

tobeornot221b wrote:
I'm a fan and I don't feel laughed at by the authors.
Just saying.
TEH - a retrospective justification of CM's behaviour at the BFI? Come on, you can't be serious!

I agree. Fine, I could live with less references, but I never felt laughed at. Merely the opposite. It's just fun.

>>>> TEH - a retrospective justification of CM's behaviour at the BFI? Come on, you can't be serious!

SolarSystem · January 3, 2014 9:02 am

I don't feel laughed at, either. But nevertheless, I also thought that it was a bit too much.

I spoke to a colleague yesterday, she knows the show and likes Benedict and she watched TEH. And she told me that at times she felt a bit lost and confused, because there were lots of things that obviously were supposed to be funny - but she didn't understand why.

And even I have to say that after a while I had the feeling as if I were stuck in some sort of insider-joke. Don't get me wrong, there were lots of things I liked very, very much (the first two theories about The Fall are just priceless, for different reasons), but I could have done without lots of others.

SusiGo · January 3, 2014 9:03 am

Tobe, sj, Matt, I agree with you all. Well said.

anjaH_alias · January 3, 2014 10:09 am

SolarSystem wrote:
I don't feel laughed at, either. But nevertheless, I also thought that it was a bit too much.

I spoke to a colleague yesterday, she knows the show and likes Benedict and she watched TEH. And she told me that at times she felt a bit lost and confused, because there were lots of things that obviously were supposed to be funny - but she didn't understand why.

And even I have to say that after a while I had the feeling as if I were stuck in some sort of insider-joke. Don't get me wrong, there were lots of things I liked very, very much (the first two theories about The Fall are just priceless, for different reasons), but I could have done without lots of others.

I agree with that. I like the film very much though I don´t get everything. I hope I will be enlightened in the future , I am longing for the audio comments. The only thing I am wondering about: My first Sherlock episode once was THoB. I was immediately hooked, although the episode is not the beginning, maybe also not the best, and of course I couldn´t understand every joke. But it worked without that. And now? I doubt that a new audience can easily step in the whole series. I mean I don´t know really - how could I! -, but at least it could be difficult. That´s a waste, or? A film, besides all nods and references, should work also as a single masterpiece imo. Has somebody spoken to another who knows nothing or at least not much about the films before?

SolarSystem · January 3, 2014 10:21 am

But this is not even about 'new watchers'! This is about people that have watched and know the six previous episodes, but don't do fan stuff. 'Normal' viewers that don't do fandom, forums, tumblr, fanfic. They won't get lots of those references, either.

anjaH_alias · January 3, 2014 10:26 am

SolarSystem wrote:
But this is not even about 'new watchers'! This is about people that have watched and know the six previous episodes, but don't do fan stuff. 'Normal' viewers that don't do fandom, forums, tumblr, fanfic. They won't get lots of those references, either.

Jipp. And, of course, every series´ makers have new watchers in their mind. Or at least they should, would be too short-sighted without. That´s a kind of "law" and they have commitments also regarding BBC and money etc.
Sherlock is also not a normal series, it´s something between films and series, little masterpieces. Of course they have insider jokes but these should not disturb new people to get in imo. I would wonder if Gatiss and Moffat risk that purposely. But maybe TEH is working without the films before, I don´t know.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (January 3, 2014 10:29 am)

January 3, 2014 11:00 am

sirlockofthesher wrote:
yes. after a while it got very annoying. Like the fans weren't be soluted but laughed at. Reminiscent of the q and a after the premiere.

Yes. Breaking the fourth wall is a dangerous thing to do for writers and for everybody involved. Saw this coming in a way.

After having seen the episode just once and desperately in need of the DVD I am still not sure what all this is about.

It's my way to interpret the references:
On the one hand Mr Gatiss tells the fans not very subtle: Look this is what you wanted. I'm giving it to you. If you (the fans) were allowed to write "Sherlock" it would look like this. e.g. everybody's fanfiction made flesh on TV screeen. Sherlock beaten up and tortured for his sins, kissing Molly, a Reichenbach theory that everybody expected to see...
I imagine that Mr Gatiss thought: I am the story teller. Please stop telling me what Sherlock will experience. I will provide the explanation when I'm ready.
So he gave us no conclusion, no genuine reunion scene with John and no explanation how he survived the fall.

I don't know when it will happen and whether it will happen at all in series 3.

On the other hand I don't see Mr Gatiss disrespectful towards the fans and their theories. I was a bit afraid about this after the Moran incident.
It's the contrary. Maybe he wants to say that every imagination is appreciated and can be useful and included. Some are borderline psychopathic, some are sweet and romantic. Everything is canon.
Because at the end when it comes to a life and death situation for Sherlock Holmes the fan's fantasies are decisive and brought him back to life and resurrected him.

My personal imagination of Sherlock is not in ep1. It's in the mini-episode. But perhaps when I get to know the ep. a bit better...

SolarSystem · January 3, 2014 11:08 am

Swanpride wrote:
Even if you are not active in social media, it would be pretty hard to miss at least some of the hype. Every TV interview and special adressed it after all.

Okay, so we're talking about the UK. But in Germany for example there is near to nothing in the (social) media about Sherlock.

SolarSystem · January 3, 2014 12:15 pm

Yes, they were, absolutely, and I enjoyed them very much. I just think that sometimes... less is more.

tonnaree · January 3, 2014 12:21 pm

I don't care if this sounds totally silly but the references made me feel special. Even though Moffit and Gatiss love to troll us I believe they love the fandom and appreicate how we've responded to their creation. This was like a gift to us.

For me the references did not get in the way of the story or the emotions.

Sherlock Holmes · January 3, 2014 4:00 pm

I didn't feel laughed at in the slightest and I didn't feel that it was making fun of the fans. I kind of like the way the makers of the show have such a close relationship with the fandom and that we almost feed off each other.

However, I did feel that this particular episode might be quite difficult to watch and confusing for someone who has never seen Sherlock before. It might actually put them off, which would be a shame.

Sherlock Holmes · January 3, 2014 4:02 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
But this is not even about 'new watchers'! This is about people that have watched and know the six previous episodes, but don't do fan stuff. 'Normal' viewers that don't do fandom, forums, tumblr, fanfic. They won't get lots of those references, either.

Yeah, normal viewers like my parents. They got me into Sherlock in the first place. They really like the series, were really looking forward to it coming on again, but honestly, they thought this episode was the worst thing ever. They hated it. My mum described it as "self indulgent rubbish"

anjaH_alias · January 3, 2014 4:05 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Even if you are not active in social media, it would be pretty hard to miss at least some of the hype. Every TV interview and special adressed it after all.
Okay, so we're talking about the UK. But in Germany for example there is near to nothing in the (social) media about Sherlock.

Exactly. And, btw, in October I met three different UK citzens (two from the Isle of Wright, one from Wales) during a roundtrip, all TV viewers and owners, who have never heard of "Sherlock" at all . But they may be exceptions in the UK. Other people might have heard about the hype, but not necessarily about the contents of the hype. I doubt that everybody in the UK who likes Sherlock knows about the different ships, about partially hysterical tumblr discussions, about the clue, which everybody missed or whatever. And I presume that this is the majority of the 10 million, who watched TEH on Wednesday. And I can´t imagine a BBC who says: "Okay guys, from now on we don´t do it for possible new viewers, we serve the old fans only". The BBC is a big public station, financed from all TV owners, airing Sherlock at prime times - this is potentially made for all British viewers. And so they must have a chance to get in. And this without buying the former dvds first - it works the other way round, first you get interested and then you may go deeper into something.
Also a fandom is changing after some time, always, for whatever reasons. A series like Sherlock, which targets new episodes for decades, with big breaks in between, must always get fresh blood. People may change or loose their interest, move somewhere else, even die in between, and others grow up. Let´s see, one fan-episode would of course not destroy anything, can be quite okay in this case, but I wouldn´t wonder if new viewers, who came along on New Years Day, are not willing to go on with that series. As much as I like it - it could be dangerous.

SolarSystem · January 3, 2014 4:25 pm

...and this is an official statement from the BBC, Moffat, Sue Vertue...?