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June 14, 2018 7:17 am  #8181


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This is not about Johnlock as such but I think there is a connection. And I am baffled at Mofftiss taking this up 25 years later - and at the Sun's homophobia but this should not come as a surprise:

http://devoursjohnlock.tumblr.com/post/167707451416/the-tabloid-infinity-mirror

 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 14, 2018 4:02 pm  #8182


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think Janine taking selling the story to the press worked particularly well in HLV, because of Magnussen being a media mogul.  Janine was able to have a sort of revenge on him by selling to a rival.  But also, I think, it added to the idea of Magnussen's power - we know that the story wasn't true, and that there was no evidence, but it didn't stop the papers publishing.   Maybe it shouldn't have been such a revelation when Sherlock found out that Magnussen didn't need a secret vault!   This was probably a major clue (although I didn't notice it until just now, when I read your post, Susi!).

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Moftiss had seen the Sun story (they would presumably have been watching the show), and remembered it, either consciously or unconsciously, when writing HLV. 

 

 

June 20, 2018 7:41 pm  #8183


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Here is a long, detailed, and polite answer to the Slate podcast discussed in here:

https://sherlock-overflow-error.tumblr.com/post/174902691918/in-defense-of-tjlc


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 20, 2018 9:32 pm  #8184


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Slightly OT, but there's one area where I agree so much with the writer - there does seem to be a prejudice against teenage/young women and the things they like (I've noticed particularly with Twilight and Justin Bieber in the past).  It's fashionable to hate what teenage women love, which I feel is critical of young women. 

I have to admit that I've been (and probably still am!) a bit confused by the difference between Johnlock and TJLC.  The writer puts it very clearly that Johnlock is purely about shipping the characters rather than believing it would happen in the show, but I've felt there is a kind of half way house where people believe it's the intention of the show, but don't believe all the "conspiracy" type clues.   I do find it difficult to understand how people could believe in the drink code thing!  But I think the Slate podcast did try to understand at the end. 

I liked the points in the article about the positive aspects of the TJLC community.  It's funny - I'd posted just a while back that I feel it's a shame people latched on to John and Sherlock's relationship (a couple basically shown as straight or heavily closeted, white, middleaged, middle class, etc., men) for representation for LGBT youth, rather than characters closer to their demographic and openly gay.   But I wonder if the community maybe needed something like the "conspiracy" aspect to have those positive benefits?  If the programme had actually shown a romantic relationship, then there would have been no need for the community?

 

June 21, 2018 5:59 am  #8185


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

An interesting one, Liberty.
Possibly I deal with TJLC the same as I do all faiths and that isn't bad: I simply assume that different people believe for a variety of reasons...and I'll stop that particular line, before it turns offensive.
But anyway, I don't know whether it's actually a need or a want to believe, again, maybe it's eiher one of the other for individuals...
I can only repeat what I have already said: if the BBC Sherlock team had decided to go down the gay route, nobody would have been happier than me.
But they didn't and I really think we ought to respect their choices on that one...again I don't know how many times I have to say this: but we have fan art/fic/ vids and even our own fantasies for personal visions- we do not have any right to impose our head canon on anyone else.
The BBC team are under no obligation to meet anybody's character development/storylines expectations....
I will continue to believe in complete artistic freedom and therefore the  team have to be allowed to make the show they want to.
Whether we want to watch it or not, is our decision.The show still has my full support, whether it continues or not.
I watch other shows to see the gay storylines I enjoy.

Last edited by besleybean (June 21, 2018 6:00 am)


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June 21, 2018 8:52 pm  #8186


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thanks for the link, Susi. It's always good to get nuanced opinions. TJLC is, as most things, not only good or only bad. It is what it is, to quote John.

My biggest problem with TJLC is that quite a few seem to think (or seemed to think) that their interpretation was the only right one, and if the writers didn't see that and didn't have Johnlock as end game, then they were wrong, misleading, queerbaiting, cowards etc etc. 

She writes in this reply that they do it mostly for fun. But the ones who held the belief I wrote about above are the ones that I think of as "stalinists", to quote Martin. 

I think most tings are fine as long as they are done for fun, with a bit of perspective and a with a bit of a tongue-in-cheek attitude. If people starts to take things like this too seriously, that's when things starts to go badly.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 22, 2018 5:46 am  #8187


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

@Vhanja Well, at least in terms of a TV show- yes! 


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 22, 2018 7:42 am  #8188


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the writer was making the point that TJLC is/was a lot more fun and positive (and maybe sometimes tongue-in-cheek?) than it seems from the outside.  I think, as an outsider, I was influenced a lot by Rebekah's videos which were posted here - some of the people there seemed to have so much of their own identity and self-worth invested in Johnlock, and it did seem concerning, knowing that the outcome was not likely to be what they expected.  The writer does say that some people were harmed by it, but it's good to know that it was so positive for the vast majority.

I do really like the article and especially the bit on the various types of theories: it links through to this https://sherlock-overflow-error.tumblr.com/post/155539017258/the-six-thatchers-survival-pack-version-20 to demonstrate the range of different theories after each S4 episode aired.  I can see how it would be a lot of fun to look for clues and discuss all this stuff!  The trouble for me, personally, is that I can't make myself believe the writers would write it this way, and I do feel that all the "theory" ignores the bigger picture.   

Take the "drinks code" for example, which the writer has down as circumstantial evidence.  I can see the fun in looking for patterns, and trying to fit them to the theory.  But there doesn't seem to be any real basis for the theory in the first place, does there?  And it doesn't make sense that Moftiss would give information in this way. 

 

 

June 22, 2018 7:42 pm  #8189


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

The thing is that Steven Moffat himself said - I searched for the exact quote but could not find it - something about drinking having a certain meaning in the show. I know for sure that I read it and I suspect it might have been the starting point for the drinks theory. I will add the quote as soon as I find it. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 22, 2018 8:17 pm  #8190


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, I remember having read something like that myself. I think that quote was also the basis for some fans thinking that John had an alcohol problem, which also made it's way into quite a few fanfics. I personally have never seen John as having an alcohol problem (which again shows you just how easily it is to have different interpretations of the show).


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 22, 2018 8:21 pm  #8191


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

There was a link in the link you posted to this: http://inevitably-johnlocked.tumblr.com/post/166003660139/not-a-question-but-ive-just-read-a-discussion .

But that's just a quote from the ASIB commentary where they are laughing and joking about it.  And they're talking about alcohol really, rather than hot drinks.  I have to say that what John's drinking is odd, though.  It looks like a wine bottle, but a whisky tumbler, and the drink itself doesn't look like either!  Dubonnet is mentioned (and Ribena!). 

 

June 23, 2018 7:28 am  #8192


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, that's where the quote is from? It seems like they are joking to me. 

I would assume that what John was drinking in ASiB was whisky, due to the tumbler. Whisky comes in various shades of yellow/orange/gold. Could of course also be brandy/cognac. 

Last edited by Vhanja (June 23, 2018 7:29 am)


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 23, 2018 8:10 am  #8193


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't know if it's the lighting or my screen but the liquid looks brown to me.  It doesn't look much like whisky and I think the portion is too big for whisky, brandy or cognac!  I think the colour might have been why Dubonnet was mentioned.  Or maybe another brownish fortified wine - tawny port, sherry, madeira? The choice of tumbler is odd for all of those.  I don't know if any eagle eyed people can identify the bottle?

 

June 23, 2018 12:53 pm  #8194


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Do you have a screenshot?


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 23, 2018 5:45 pm  #8195


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'm the worst person to ask for pictures!  Let's see if this works:

http://i67.tinypic.com/5egwag.png


Not Dubonnet, anyway.  I think Dubonnet has a red foil top.

Last edited by Liberty (June 23, 2018 5:49 pm)

 

June 24, 2018 6:45 am  #8196


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I had no idea people were referencing the commentary...once again, does humour not cross cultures or something?  They are clearly having a laugh!
Maybe folks just don't get Mark and Steven's subtle wit! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/stoned.png


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 24, 2018 7:21 am  #8197


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't know - it doesn't seem to translate well.  And I think that's sometimes in the show as well - that things that are humorous are taken seriously.  I don't know if that's more common outside the UK?  Maybe it also goes along with the seriousness not translating too.  I'm thinking of that Mumbai interview, where people thought Mark was lying.  Somehow the tone is not always coming across.

I'm still curious about what John's drinking, though, and I will happily concede that what we're shown is an odd choice.  In a bachelor flat like that it would be possible that they just didn't own wine glasses and so John is using a tumbler for wine.  But I'm sure there are wine glasses visible at other times (Christmas party?). 

 

June 24, 2018 7:23 am  #8198


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I find things like the Mumbai experience so hurtful...a rare moment the guy actually opens his heart and he has it ripped from him, stomped on and thrown back in his face- charming.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 24, 2018 10:17 am  #8199


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, now I see the picture. I don't remember this particular scene, when was this? I remember John having a tumbler while sitting and reading, waiting for Sherlock to come back. ("danger night"), during Christmas and New Year's Eve. I can't recall that particular moment from that screenshot.

It looks very much like red wine, though. The bottle and the liquid itself.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

June 24, 2018 11:10 am  #8200


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the bottle and the liquid do look like red wine that picture, but fortified wines can have similar bottles.  Maybe it's just my PC, but later the liquid looks more brown.  And then later still it's more of a pinkish colour - it actually looks more like a blackcurrant squash (Ribena was the other drink mentioned!).  It might that it changes with the lighting, or might be a continuity error.

Why would he drink wine out of a tumbler, when they have wine glasses?  Wine also isn't a traditional drink for Hogmanay (which I think might be why some people are seeing whisky, although the colour looks a bit too dark to me). 

The scene is the one at New Year, when John asks if Sherlock will be seeing Irene again (it's shortly after the Battersea scene), and he plays Auld Lang Syne. 

 

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