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September 29, 2013 9:09 pm  #41


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

But that's all how other characters perceive them  and to be fair, it's mainly part of Sherlock being seen as different.

Yes, but why do that? Why have the other characters perceive them like that? You just don't need this to make the bromance work, so why do it? If they didn't mention these things, the show would still work perfectly.


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September 29, 2013 9:52 pm  #42


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

True story:

My husband is a very easy-going, non-offensive guy that I met in college.  We started dating, and I quickly realized that one of his best friends was a HUGE primadonna that would get mad if he didn't get his way.  Since my husband (then-boyfriend) was a pretty big pushover, his friend ran the show, and there would be times that our plans would get scrapped because his friend wanted to do something else.  After this happened a bunch of times, I finally put my foot down and told my husband that I cared for him very much, but I was tired of playing second-fiddle to his friend (sound familiar?).  Well, my husband got the message and he informed his friend that he could still do things with him, but that it couldn't be the way it was before.

Basically, I see John as a pushover when it comes to Sherlock; John hasn't found the right woman that he's willing to put his foot down to Sherlock over...yet.  It doesn't mean that there's underlying sexual tension- it just means that Sherlock is his best friend whom he respects and admires so much that he's willing to put up with Sherlock running off his girlfriends...for now.  We'll see what happens as the show goes on, though.

Last edited by sj4iy (September 29, 2013 9:54 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 29, 2013 10:42 pm  #43


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the show delibertaly leaves it ambigious...which is nice. Everyone is free to pick what they want to believe. I like them as friends. But I have no problem with other people gushing over them. It's like most people are all over BC while I enjoy Martin Freeman the most, and not for his looks but his acting abilities. To each its own. It's not like I don't swoon, I just do it in another fandom.

 

September 29, 2013 10:46 pm  #44


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

sj4iy wrote:

True story:

My husband is a very easy-going, non-offensive guy that I met in college.  We started dating, and I quickly realized that one of his best friends was a HUGE primadonna that would get mad if he didn't get his way.  Since my husband (then-boyfriend) was a pretty big pushover, his friend ran the show, and there would be times that our plans would get scrapped because his friend wanted to do something else.  After this happened a bunch of times, I finally put my foot down and told my husband that I cared for him very much, but I was tired of playing second-fiddle to his friend (sound familiar?).  Well, my husband got the message and he informed his friend that he could still do things with him, but that it couldn't be the way it was before.

Basically, I see John as a pushover when it comes to Sherlock; John hasn't found the right woman that he's willing to put his foot down to Sherlock over...yet.  It doesn't mean that there's underlying sexual tension- it just means that Sherlock is his best friend whom he respects and admires so much that he's willing to put up with Sherlock running off his girlfriends...for now.  We'll see what happens as the show goes on, though.

 
Sherlock can be a primadonna but I think what John finds hard to resist is the  sense of danger and excitement that life with Sherlock holds. I think it would be hard for anyone (man or woman) to compete with how this aspect  of John's psyche clicks with Sherlock

Last edited by NotYourHousekeeperDear (September 29, 2013 10:48 pm)


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September 29, 2013 11:12 pm  #45


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

True story:

My husband is a very easy-going, non-offensive guy that I met in college.  We started dating, and I quickly realized that one of his best friends was a HUGE primadonna that would get mad if he didn't get his way.  Since my husband (then-boyfriend) was a pretty big pushover, his friend ran the show, and there would be times that our plans would get scrapped because his friend wanted to do something else.  After this happened a bunch of times, I finally put my foot down and told my husband that I cared for him very much, but I was tired of playing second-fiddle to his friend (sound familiar?).  Well, my husband got the message and he informed his friend that he could still do things with him, but that it couldn't be the way it was before.

Basically, I see John as a pushover when it comes to Sherlock; John hasn't found the right woman that he's willing to put his foot down to Sherlock over...yet.  It doesn't mean that there's underlying sexual tension- it just means that Sherlock is his best friend whom he respects and admires so much that he's willing to put up with Sherlock running off his girlfriends...for now.  We'll see what happens as the show goes on, though.

 
Sherlock can be a primadonna but I think what John finds hard to resist is the sense of danger and excitement that life with Sherlock holds. I think it would be hard for anyone (man or woman) to compete with how this aspect of John's psyche clicks with Sherlock

That's definitely true...it's basically the age-old "man doesn't really want to grow up and be responsible" story.  Sherlock is sort of a Peter Pan character, which is attractive when you have nothing keeping you grounded.  But John won't always stay in that mind set.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 30, 2013 6:50 am  #46


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Who says that Sherlock will always stay that way? He is on a journey, too. And after everything which happens, he certainly grew up a little bit.

 

September 30, 2013 7:06 am  #47


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This tread is in the 'canon' department, so let's go with the canon only shall we? Because whatever is going on in Sherlock, we can't take that as any evidence. It is just the personal preference from the people who are creating the show from a 21st century perspective. There have been all kinds of adaptations from Holmes getting married to Holmes getting frozen and woken up in the 22nd century. I think that in this tread we have to take only the canon into account. And as some people here already pointed out, there is no evidence in the canon for a romantic or even a sexual relationship.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

September 30, 2013 7:13 am  #48


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Agreed Jacco. 


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September 30, 2013 7:22 am  #49


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

"

Jacco111 wrote:

This tread is in the 'canon' department, so let's go with the canon only shall we? Because whatever is going on in Sherlock, we can't take that as any evidence. It is just the personal preference from the people who are creating the show from a 21st century perspective. There have been all kinds of adaptations from Holmes getting married to Holmes getting frozen and woken up in the 22nd century. I think that in this tread we have to take only the canon into account. And as some people here already pointed out, there is no evidence in the canon for a romantic or even a sexual relationship.

May I quote the first post in this thread? 

"In Canon
In BBC
In Guy Ritche
In any other adaptations.

DIscuss, debate, support, refute Johnlock in all its forms. Have fun."

Just saying. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 30, 2013 8:22 am  #50


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

There are surpringly few adaptations in which even Watson gets married. Most of them just skip over this part (and the first meeting, for that matter).
In which one does get Holmes married? I remember a particularly awful one which suggest that he had a son with Irene Adler, but otherwise....

 

September 30, 2013 8:40 am  #51


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Watson gets married in "A Game of Shadows". They skipped it in the Granada series, I suppose because Edward Hardwicke was far too old to be a convincing bridegroom for Mary Morstan.
As for Holmes, I have no idea. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 30, 2013 8:44 am  #52


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Swanpride wrote:

There are surpringly few adaptations in which even Watson gets married. Most of them just skip over this part (and the first meeting, for that matter).
In which one does get Holmes married? I remember a particularly awful one which suggest that he had a son with Irene Adler, but otherwise....

That was actually the famous 'biographer' Baring Gould who came up with that idea. The son of Holmes and Adler turned out to be Nero Wolfe...

Not really something to take very seriously if you ask me.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

September 30, 2013 8:45 am  #53


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

Watson gets married in "A Game of Shadows". They skipped it in the Granada series, I suppose because Edward Hardwicke was far too old to be a convincing bridegroom for Mary Morstan.
As for Holmes, I have no idea. 

True, there were some hints though. And after all, in the canon the issue of Mrs. Watson is also somewhat problematic to say the least.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

September 30, 2013 9:13 am  #54


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

According to my DVD extras, the Granada series scipped the marriage mostly because they didn't want to deal with coming up for explanations why Watson just leaves his wife and work alone to wander of with Sherlock.
Interesting is the Russian series...not only does the marriage happen, but it is even a long-lasting one, with Mary Morstan still being alive when the series ended.

 

September 30, 2013 10:47 am  #55


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Swanpride wrote:

According to my DVD extras, the Granada series scipped the marriage mostly because they didn't want to deal with coming up for explanations why Watson just leaves his wife and work alone to wander of with Sherlock.
Interesting is the Russian series...not only does the marriage happen, but it is even a long-lasting one, with Mary Morstan still being alive when the series ended.

I can't help the feeling that after ACD decided to let Holmes return he did not know what to do with Mrs Watson and discreetly got rid of her. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 30, 2013 11:42 am  #56


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

According to my DVD extras, the Granada series scipped the marriage mostly because they didn't want to deal with coming up for explanations why Watson just leaves his wife and work alone to wander of with Sherlock.
Interesting is the Russian series...not only does the marriage happen, but it is even a long-lasting one, with Mary Morstan still being alive when the series ended.

I can't help the feeling that after ACD decided to let Holmes return he did not know what to do with Mrs Watson and discreetly got rid of her. 

 
That was always how it felt to me, too...otherwise he would have written a proper death scene for her.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 30, 2013 11:43 am  #57


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Just like the bullpup.

http://www.lagergaard.dk/sh/img/bullpup.gif


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

September 30, 2013 1:03 pm  #58


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

"

Jacco111 wrote:

This tread is in the 'canon' department, so let's go with the canon only shall we? Because whatever is going on in Sherlock, we can't take that as any evidence. It is just the personal preference from the people who are creating the show from a 21st century perspective. There have been all kinds of adaptations from Holmes getting married to Holmes getting frozen and woken up in the 22nd century. I think that in this tread we have to take only the canon into account. And as some people here already pointed out, there is no evidence in the canon for a romantic or even a sexual relationship.

May I quote the first post in this thread? 

"In Canon
In BBC
In Guy Ritche
In any other adaptations.

DIscuss, debate, support, refute Johnlock in all its forms. Have fun."

Just saying. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been known to happen, but haven't there been discussions and speculation on the Holmes/Watson relationship from the very begining?  So even if we did just stick to "canon" there are still things that can be open to interpretation.
 


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September 30, 2013 4:02 pm  #59


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes that is true, but I meant that for evidence we should only take the canon into account.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

September 30, 2013 4:11 pm  #60


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well actually, we should take into account what the BBC Sherlock writers and actors have said and also what happens.
This is SO frustrating.
1.  Well we''ll all know by the time BBC Sherlock finishes whether anything happens between Sherlock and John and it isn't going to.
2.  I wouild be so grateful if somebody could help me out.
Elsewhere on the forum somebody kindly posted Ian Hallard's piece about Johnlock.
It is sitting on my desktop but I am just unable to copy and paste it.
If I have to type it all out I will.
Cos I just want to point to it everytime any of  you post and saylease read.


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