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September 28, 2013 7:16 pm  #1


Johnlock: The Official Debate

In Canon
In BBC
In Guy Ritche
In any other adaptations.

DIscuss, debate, support, refute Johnlock in all its forms. Have fun.

Personally, I ship Johnlock for fun but don't really take it seriously. To me they're just really good friends. BFFs! It's a bromance.


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September 28, 2013 11:56 pm  #2


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Same here, Boss. I ship them as more of a bromance for the canon and the show. But I'm not averse to a little bit of Johnlock now and then. The fact remains that they do love each other, however you want to interpret it http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


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Dean - "I'm not happy about it. But I got to move on. So I'm gonna keep doing what we do...while I still can. And I'd like you to be there with me."

Sam - "I'm your brother, Dean, if you ever need to talk about anything with anybody, you got someone right here next to you."


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September 29, 2013 12:09 am  #3


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't ship anyone at all because I'm not really that type of person (I've never really been the romantic type).  I like the jokes they make about it in the show, but I don't really go in for fanfiction or fanart.  However, I don't mind that others enjoy fanmade stuff at all...everyone should have fun with it in their own way.  I suppose the only thing that bothers me is that some people go a bit overboard with it, but there are always overboard fans for everything.  I've never been that serious about anything.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 29, 2013 2:25 am  #4


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I haven't read the canon since I was about 13 (on my to do list to revist!) but I have to say I think the sexual tension between John and Sherlock in the BBC series is undeniable. I remember watching A Study in Pink for the first time and just thinking how revolutionary it was.  They are like Scully and Mulder, Bones and Booth- if they were different genders no one would even question the obvious sexual tension


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September 29, 2013 2:37 am  #5


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I understand going overboard on some things.   Just look at this message board in general.    So for those who want their imaginations to take flight in Johnlockia,  I say go for it.


For me,  it's only something to have fun with.   The canon and the best dramatic interpretations of Sherlock over the years underscore the unspoken unconditional love that is a perfect friendship.   It's extremely gratifying to see it.   The unspokenness itself is intoxicating to watch.  It's a popular core theme throughout literature and cinema,  but rarely is it captured as cleverly as with the ACD stories,  and the BBC Sherlock interpretation in particular.

 

September 29, 2013 4:13 am  #6


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

CarlPowers wrote:

I understand going overboard on some things.   Just look at this message board in general.    So for those who want their imaginations to take flight in Johnlockia,  I say go for it.


For me,  it's only something to have fun with.   The canon and the best dramatic interpretations of Sherlock over the years underscore the unspoken unconditional love that is a perfect friendship.   It's extremely gratifying to see it.   The unspokenness itself is intoxicating to watch.  It's a popular core theme throughout literature and cinema,  but rarely is it captured as cleverly as with the ACD stories,  and the BBC Sherlock interpretation in particular.

When I say "overboard", I mean the people who send nasty emails, tweets or messages to actors or actresses because they feel that they are coming "between" their characters and things of that nature.  Just chatting about it on a message board isn't overboard at all.

Last edited by sj4iy (September 29, 2013 4:14 am)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 29, 2013 7:45 am  #7


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

But yes, tweeting Mark that he'd better not marry off John or they'll...whatever to him Stupid actually,,let's just call it for what it is.Oh and shames the whole fandom.
Before I go any further, I will make one request. If people are not clear what I'm saying or they need clarification, can you please ask.
I've read all of the contributions above and some of them are not entirely clear to me.
I think language is a problem.  If people don't use the right words or...whatever it is, some of the posts above seem to be giving mixed messages to me...tho maybe that's entirely appropriate for this thread. Ha! Anyhow.
The Canon

1.  ACD.  
He's  dead, so we can't ask him.  I'm also unaware of anything he particularly wrote about his characters or their story.
2. Victorian Mores.  Yes you have to be aware of background, context and culture. I've never paid that close attention to all of this, but I gather Holmes and Watson are based on real people that Doyler admired.
3.Evidence.  We can only make judgements on what is there, not what we either hope or imagine is there. In this case. Doyle's words.
So where does this leave us? Holmes is never shown to have been in any kind of romantic relationship.  Watson marries.

BBC Sherlock

1. Current.  Here we have the advantage over the Canon.  It's happening now.  Plus, we live in a multi media world, so we have articles/interviews/Q&As/tweets constantly at our fingtips or in front of our very eyes.
2.Evidence. Same as above.  We can only judge on what actually does happen in the series and the dialogue that is actually spoken. Body language and looks are not totally irrelevant, but they can be so liable to personal interpretation,  better stick to the facts. Oh and do not use the writers' saying: people are free to interpret the show how they like, without also including the other part of that quote, that they did not write it as a gay relationship.
3.  Divide your genres.  We are blessed with fan art/fiction/videos and photoshop etc. Do not confuse these with either The Canon or BBC Sherlock. Evertbody is also free to have their own fantasies.  Again, do not confuse what you hope for or imagine is happening, with what really is.
So where does this leave us?  Mark and Steven are on record as saying they recognised the Canon as the perfect portrayal of a beautiful, loving male friendship.
They wanted to be true to this in their interpretation.
My personal belief: bromance( a loving male freindship)is the most perfect thing.  To try and force it into something sexual, is somehow saying it is not good enough and is frankly demeaning.
I love homo-erotica, but that is not what BBC Sherlock is.

Last edited by besleybean (September 29, 2013 7:45 am)


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September 29, 2013 9:37 am  #8


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I love the idea that Johnlock was written as a bromance in the bbc version however I do have a few issues with the'evidence' presented above both in the canon and in the bbc version.

As someone who has lived a little bit of life and is also a psychologist by trade I have to say that being married is unfortunately not evidence of much.  This is perhaps even more true in ACD's time when men of a certain age and class were expected to marry.  You really have to have a bit of inside knowledge into what the marriage was like and although I haven't read the books for ages, I don't remember there being much discussion of what happened in Watson's bedroom in the canon!

I think Sherlock's apparent lack of interest in relationships with women could be argued as being more telling, especially as it would have been less typical of the time.

In terms the BBC series, certainly what Mark and Steven have said could be argued to be the best evidence of Johnlock purely being bromance.  There is another layer of the actor's interpetations of the script to be taken into account though and hasn't Martin Freeman said something in support of the sexual tension between the two characters?


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"You can always tell a good Chinese place by examining the bottom third of the door handle"
 

September 29, 2013 9:49 am  #9


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I actually don't care. For me, it is simply a great friendship, one of the kind which is just as strong perhaps even stronger than a romance. Love is more than just romantic, and as a general rule, I enjoy stories which explore the bond of friendship more than ones which go for the romance (especially of the contrived kind).

 

September 29, 2013 9:58 am  #10


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

You are perfectly right to bring up this point,NYHD, let me attempt clarification.
(Here marriage is being used as the traditional male+female)There are many gay men who have married in the past, there are many gay men who are marreid now and there are many gay men who will marry in the future.
Sexuality,also, is very fluid.(Ha!)
Indeed, we possibly couold bear this in mind when looking at the Canon.
But not NOW.  Not in 21st century England, where gays are getting married for goodness sake.  No need for any duality here.  If Mark and Steven had wanted to write a gay romp, they would have been free to do so. 
Infact I would add, to try and present a series where people felt they couldn't be open about their sexuality, would be quite offensive!
I find it equally offensive to suggest that asexuality/celibacy don't exist or are not valid lifestyles.

No, Martin has jokingly said that some fans are just convinced that Sherlock and John  are at it.

Last edited by besleybean (September 29, 2013 10:01 am)


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September 29, 2013 10:05 am  #11


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well Mark and Steven could have written "a gay romp" but that wouldn't be very interesting would it?  Getting the two romantic leads actually together pretty much kills the chemistry of the unresolved sexual tension.  So I see your point, but not necessarily agree with you here.
One of the things I love about BBC Sherlock is that he never feels obliged like John to deny that he is gay.  He just is who is- and yes, I think that is progress!


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"You can always tell a good Chinese place by examining the bottom third of the door handle"
 

September 29, 2013 10:20 am  #12


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Ok I get your point.
But I still think all interviews with Mark and Steven show they did not write a series for sexual chemisitry between the leads.
I also think this may reflect on whether or not you think sexual tension is interesting.  It isn't to me.
I'm from the WH Auden school. He used to refer to not caring, but simply wanting to know 'who was shagging who'.  
To paraphrase Sherlock.  I like my mysteries being confined to the cases, not the the character backdrops.
Though there are undoubtedly some unknowns with BBC Sherlock: Sally's total hostility to Sherlock, for one.
They do have the gay joke, which runs right through until Reichenbach.
 

Last edited by besleybean (September 29, 2013 10:39 am)


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September 29, 2013 10:36 am  #13


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

What do you mean about Sally's hostility?  I thought she just got annoyed with him coming in and basically being smarter than the police.  Are there other theories about that?
I have to say I do love the fact that Johnlock is ambiguous enough to have a proper debate on it.  I think I'm the opposite of Auden in that I would rather not know who is actually shagging who- I prefer speculating- knowing for sure takes out all the fun!


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"You can always tell a good Chinese place by examining the bottom third of the door handle"
 

September 29, 2013 10:43 am  #14


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

On every Sherlock forum I've belonged to, I have argued that Sally shows an irrational bigotry towards Sherlock.  This came to something of a climax in Reichenbach.  We await the outcome.
On the speculating: depends what you watch a show for, I guess.
I watch BBC Sherlock for the bromance, the perfect depiction of a loving male friendship.


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September 29, 2013 11:11 am  #15


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I wouldn't quite say I watch the show for it, anymore than I would say I watch it for Benedict's amazing cheekbones,  but I have enjoyed that aspect of it yes.  I sincerely hope they build on the loving friendship between Sherlock and John in the next season too- from what I have read spoiler wise, I think they will.

That's interesting about Sally.  Have you seen Luther?- she reminds me a lot of Erin Gray who has a similar relationship with Luther, who like Sherlock  is a maverick.  Anyway, subject for another/ previous thread I suppose.


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"You can always tell a good Chinese place by examining the bottom third of the door handle"
 

September 29, 2013 11:20 am  #16


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Heck, I know an Erin Gray in real life.  No, I haven't seen Dexter. Ha!


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September 29, 2013 12:03 pm  #17


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think they clearly do love each other, but in a friendship/bromance kind of way, and this is how I've always seen their relationship in the canon as well as on screen.

I like the teasing about them possibly being a couple (in a romantic way) and I think people are completely entitled to fantasise about them being lovers.
I just don't like it when those people start taking things too seriously and start hating on others because they don't share their point of view, for example those people pouring hate on Amanda Abbington (or Steven Moffat or Mark Gatiss) upon hearing that Amanda would join the show as Mary Morstan. Let's face it, it's childish, hurtful and utterly disgraceful.

Otherwise, people have been speculating about those two men for 125 years, and I have no problem with that. A lot of it is due to Conan Doyle being clearly unspecific about Sherlock Holmes's sexuality, which is largely owed to the fact that Holmes is mainly interested in solving the puzzles presented to him and has little time and energy left for other "distractions". Watson is being portrayed as a bit of a womaniser, having an experience of women that stretches over three continents, and then there are all those speculations about how many wives he actually had. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/smile.png

Two men sharing lodgings was not uncommon in the Victorian ages and it also was quite normal at that time to address another person by using the phrase "my dear". To us who read those stories now  more than 100 years later, those things have quite a different ring.

What in my eyes is unquestionable though, is that those two men clearly hold a lot of love for each other, which is shown in Watson's utter loyalty to Holmes, and there also are a few scenes in the canon where it becomes quite clear how much Holmes enjoys and appreciates the company of "his" John Watson.
This has been beautifully translated to BBC's Sherlock. I think Moffat and Gatiss have done an outstanding job there.http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/love.png
Before I got to see their interpretation of Holmes and Watson I had all but given up on ever liking any modern adaptation of the Sherlock Holmes stories.

But this is only my point of view, the beauty of fiction is, that it is always open to interpretation, and people are well invited to make use of it, as has been done in countless novels, stories, paintings and films. Conan Doyle being so unspecific about quite a few things (which I think is mainly due to him being very slapdash with his stories) is one of the many reasons why the myth still lives on until today.


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"When you walk with Sherlock Holmes, you see the battlefield" M.H.

"My brother has the brain of scientist or a philosopher, and yet he elects to be a detective...what might we deduce about his heart?" M.H.

"Home is now behind you, the world is ahead."
 
 

September 29, 2013 1:29 pm  #18


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:

I think Sherlock's apparent lack of interest in relationships with women could be argued as being more telling, especially as it would have been less typical of the time.

I don't see how it's telling of anything other than Sherlock Holmes was not a man interested in marriage.  Even if he had never met Watson, the chances of his marrying anyone was nil.  He is simply too obsessed with his work to ever give consideration to a romantic relationship.
 


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 29, 2013 1:36 pm  #19


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

On every Sherlock forum I've belonged to, I have argued that Sally shows an irrational bigotry towards Sherlock.  This came to something of a climax in Reichenbach.

I find nothing irrational about her behavior at all.  She is upset that a man without any police training has simply waltzed into Scotland Yard and has started solving their cases for them.  Instead of getting promotions and raises, she is watching Sherlock get all of the accolades.  It's not irrational, and he's never made a secret of his hatred of her.  I have worked with a man very, very much like Sherlock IRL...he was a contractor, extremely intelligent, and very off-puttish.  When you work with someone like that, you can feel sympathy for anyone who has to work with that type of person.
 


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 29, 2013 1:53 pm  #20


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Apologies, OT here.
But Sally's prime concern should be society being protected from criminals, which is exactly what Sherlock does.


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