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July 25, 2013 8:49 pm  #1


Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Sorry, I had to rant.
I don't care that Elementary exists.  I don't care that people enjoy it more than Sherlock.  What burns my biscuits is the Elementary fans, who act like they have some sort of right to rip the BBC show, Benedict Cumberbatch, Martin Freeman, Moffit, Gatiss, and everyone else involved to shreds just because some very vocal BBC fans felt that Elementary was ripping off the BBC series, and it wasn't unfounded.  If someone in a BBC vs CBS discussion, expresses why they don't like Elementary, the Elementary fans jump all over the BBC fans and accuse them of being bitter BBC fans.
Many are starting to remind me of the bitter Harry/Hermione shippers, who began ripping on JKR herself because Emerson, jokingly called them delusional in an interview.  Heck they went so far as to compare being called delusional to slavery and witch trials, drama much?
Elementary isn't some poor picked on under dog.  It's a network show, that millions enjoy.  It got the coveted Superbowl spot.  It has a lot of casual viewes.  The BBC show is shown on PBS here in the US, so people who watch it have to actively seek it out.  Sure it gets a bump when Martin and Benedict are involved in mainstream projects (The Hobbit, Star Trek) because they are awesome enough in what they do that people are curious to find out more about them.
Can people like both shows? Yep.  Plenty do.  Heck there is an off topic boards in this very forum where people talk about there love for various shows, books and films. I don't think there's one off topic thread that every memember here loves.
The fact is that the BBC and CBS shows would never be mentioned in the same breath if they didn't both have lead characters named Sherlock.
Is the Feud stupid? Yep.  But BOTH sides are guilty and I sick of Elementary supporters acting like they're the victims, and BBC fans are evil bullies.  Both sides have the right to express and defend.
Here is a prime example.  The blogger gives 10 reasons why he/she thinks Elementary is superior, won't allow dissenting opinions to be posted, except to hold up as an example of why the BBC fans are evil bitter hags.  The reasons this Blogger gives are weak and supeficial. Since I can't argue them there ( I won't waste my time typing and not have it posted, I'll argue them here.
http://arsmarginal.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/10-reasons-why-elementary-is-far-superior-to-bbcs-sherlock/

10) The Magical Speshul White Guy Actually Gets Called Out On His BS

Unlike BBC’s Sherlock who’s consistently a dick to everyone and gets a pass because he’s white and “speshul”, Elementary’s Sherlock, who while is also a dick, actually has gets called out on his antics and there are repercussions for said antics. And true to the original text, Elementary’s Sherlock actually respects human beings even if they aren’t on his level.


My Response:  Um no.  John calls Sherlock out on his BS at the end of the first episode.  Heck, Lestrade set up a drugs bust to look for the pink case, and John called him out on getting his kicks by risking his life to prove he's clever.  He's a magical white spesh who gets a pass because he's white.  Just because no one screams and shouts at him like Joan does on the CBS series doesn't mean that BC's Sherlock gets a pass.  He most certainly gets the furthest thing from a pass in Reichenbach Fall.  JLM's Sherlock should actually get called out more often.  He's a burn out who can afford to be a burn out.  a 40 year old man who complains about daddy, yet lives on Daddy's money instead of manning up and trying to make his own way in the world.  Has he ever been called out on that?
  BBC Sherlock isn't just a jerk for the sake of being a jerk.  He gets impatient with people who "see but don't observe"  People who are more interested in closing cases than solving them.

9) Elementary Featured Multiple Asians In An Episode Without Epic Racefail

If you saw Season 1 Ep 2 of BBC’s Sherlock, you know exactly the f***ry that I’m referencing
.


Of course, the blogger doesn't bother to back up her claim, people just need to go with it and agree with her opinion.  Yes, there was a Chinese crime gang in the Blind Banker. They had accents because they were from China and English was their second language, but they spoke fluently.  Su Lin Yao, is a woman who grew up in the worst possible situation, and worked to make a legitmate life for herself.  Her situation was certainly worse than Elementary's Sherlock and she was a lot less whiny about it.  When she died, it was sad, unlike most victims on either show.  The bad guys that came across worse were all the pasty white perpetraters that consulted Morirarty in order to murder people to make money.  What about the Baskerville scientists who murdered Henry's father to cover his corruption?  Sure, the Chinese gang in Blind Banker were not portrayed in a positive light, but neither were any of the white murderers.  They were all motivated by greed (except Moriarty, who was motivated by being completely insane and wanted to keep himself distracted).
The Blogger is acting like someone parroting a pundit talking point.  That doesn't prove an argument as it is just parroting.


8) Elementary features a superior Irene Adler/Moriarty

I would explain how but that would be spoilers.


Spoiler warnings can be put at the beginning of the article. And since it's an argument about why the blogger thinks Elementary is Superior to Sherlock, spoilers are essential in backing up those arguments.
Here's my spoiled filled arguments for why the BBC Irene is far superior.  In the end both got caught by Sherlock and lost everything they'd worked for.  With the BBC Irene, Sherlock figured out her game at the very last minute and cracked to code to unlock her phone where she had her secrets stored.  In Elementary, Joan was *so* clever to firgure out that Moriarty/Irene still loves Sherlock, and has him fake falling off the wagon, she walks into a hospital room, gets arrested and all the money she supposedly so cleverly attained is frozen by the police?  Even in the end of Reichenback fall, Sherlock figures out Moriarty and ultimately beats him by faking his death.  He was several steps ahead.
There is also the fact that we just seen Sherlock and Irene/Moriarty talk about how impressed they are with each other, but as an audience we don't see them actually be impressive.  BC's Sherlock plays chess so to say with both Irene and Moriarty, and has a battle of wits with both of them.  We get to actually see them be impressive so they aren't just all talk. 
I've seen the claim that Irene is dependent on Moriarty.  Well, no.  She gathered the info herself and consulted him.  It's better than being built up over 20+ episodes with generic talk, then getting caught by the authorities in an anti climatic ending.  Heck, Irene and Moriarty on the BBC often had the authorities in the palms of their hands.

7) The setting takes place in a realistic setting

Unlock BBC’s Sherlock that takes place in a very whitewashed London, Elementary takes place in a diverse New York where POCs can be seen everywhere in the background, as police officers, as execs being interviewed for cases, as recurring characters, in all socio-economic classes from all walks of like.


Um London isn't white washed on the BBC show.  Most of the characters are white, but there are PoC there.  And there are people from all walks of life in London shown.  Those characters, unlike on CBS, are more than token characters.  They are fully developed and 3-dimensional, even if they are only on for a short time.  Sherlock and John are from two very different walks of life.  They have very different world views an thought processes.
 Donovan may have an antagonistic relationship with Sherlock, but she's a far more fleshed out character than Joan or Bell. Oh and there was an Asain-Englsih officer at Baskerville  She has a freaking personality. Sherlock and Mycroft are posh, John and Lestrade or working class, straight forward blokes, Mrs. Hudson and Molly have a quite strength that is not apparent at first glance. Mrs. Hudson pretended to be afraid of the CIA guys so she could hide Irene's phone.  Kind of the same way Black Widow got info from Loki by pretending to be weepy in the Avengers.  And in RF, Sherlock had to depend on Molly to trick Moriarty and his people and protect John, Greg and Mrs. Hudson.  Molly seemed like a giddy fan girl at first, but turned out to be a source of strength or Sherlock.
Neither Sherlock, nor Joan struggles financially.  Sherlock lives off his rich daddy, whom he is not man enough to stop depending on.  Joan at one point actually said she did not need money when her sober companion contract with Sherlock expired (and she lives in New York, even Queens is not a cheap place to live).  In the crap economy we've lived in over the past decade, John's financial struggles as a soldier returning from war make him much more relatable.

And perhaps "familiar" would be a better word choice for the blogger, rather than "realistic"  Both Shows are fiction, by definition, not realistic

6) No heterosexist/homophobic jokes

Unlike Writer/Exec Producer Steve Moffatt who makes so many homophobic jokes in Sherlock that making a drinking game out of it could lead to alcohol poisoning, the writers of Elementary keep their comedy a tad more sophisticated and a tad less offensive. Because as an LGBTQ, I just love having my orientation mocked every time I watch a TV show.


It's not mocking or homophobic. In the very first episode, Sherlock and John have a conversation where they both state that neither would care if the other was gay.  The jokes on the show mock people's assumptions that have happened since the original stories were published and they don't just go with Sherlock/ Watson.  there's also Batman and Robin/ Bert and Ernie, ect.  People assume that adult males cannot have a strictly platonic friendship and care deeply about each other.  heck the jokes mock homophobia not homosexuality.  John's own sister is gay.
And the writers on Elementary make jokes of Sherlock having prostitutes.  The show is a crime drama like 100 other crime dramas, but it uses the Sherlock brand to sell itself.  That is not sophistication, it's a gimmick.

5) The writers of Elementary actually know how to write women (of color)

Let’s keep it 100, Irene Adler notwithstanding, BBC’s Sherlock is not a fine example of multifaceted female characters. Dr. Joan Watson is no sidekick and consistently proves herself to be Sherlock’s equal time and time again. And how many shows American or British can say that about their heroines of color?


Joan is a boring character.  Lucy Liu has played far more interesting characters.  Where are the arguments that she is great.  Her contributions to the crime solving are contrived.  On the BBC show, John is the brawn and the heart, Sherlock is the brain.  John's blog brings them cases to solve.  His steady hands and military skills saves there lives.  He is not a sidekick.  He and Sherlock are 2 halves of a whole.

On Elementary, Sherlock has taught Joan some nifty tricks and suddenly, well golley, she's just as good at solving things as he is.  Talk about a lack of realism.  Or a better word: credibility.  If Sherlock is so gifted and Joan is supposed to be intelligent, but not a super genius (Sherlock himself said that she wasn't a super genius in the second to last episode) how is she suddenly better than the police.

And there should be more WoC in shows, but they should be well-written, not just token characters or gimmicks.  We need more people who are not  heteroWASPish males as writers, directors and producers in televsion and film.  That way women, homo sexuals, minorities or anyone else who is marginalized in a patriarchal consumerist system can have their voice and creates fully fleshed out characters, rather than token characters.

I had a gay professor in college who was one of the most influential teachers I've ever had.  He talked about the show Will and Grace.  He didn't like it because people thought it represented typical gay men.  He had been in a devoted relationship for over 20 years at that point.  He mentioned that Will was never in a long term relationship and that bothered my professor. I see his point.

As a woman, I don't just want to see token females.  It's more insulting than having no females at all.  it's patronizing.  Few Waspish males can write really great females.  Joss Whedon can.  I have faith in Peter Jackson and his crew will make Tauriel a great fleshed out character in The Hobbit. Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and the people at Marvel have created a lot of 3 dimensional characters from all races, religions, nationalities, sexual orientations, ect.  More of them should be a  JK Rowling is a woman who has written a lot of great male characters, including one who happened to be gay: Dumbledore.  The thing about Dumbledore that makes him a great example of a gay character and not a token gay character is that there are a million other things that can be said about him.

Personal note:  my best friend is a gay man.  I knew him for years before he told me he was gay (the day he told he was acting so serious, I thought he was going to tell me he had cancer or something bad had happened).
A lot of people assumed we were a couple. Including my grand mother, as well as several family memembers and friends.  One joke between the two of us was that we were Harry Potter and Hermione Granger (more recently I've been Luna Lovegood, though) because people always assumed we were a couple. 
Maybe that's why I don't see the "we're not a couple" jokes has mocking homophobia or mocking assumption rather than being homophobic.

I think that it's a stupid and possibly racist/ sexist argument simply because she's an Asian American woman.  But it's also superficial to claim that she is a great character or somehow superior or more edgy than Martin Freeman's John Watson simply because she is an Asian American female.

4) 50 Percent of the Elementary cast is comprised of people of color.

Jon Michael Hill as Det. Marcus Bell (which I love the nod to Joseph Bell, and given to the black guy no less) and Dr. Joan Watson. Both of whom get screentime and stations and agency. More than that, recurring characters are also POCs, OH EM EFFIN GEE, IT’S LIKE THE NAACP UP IN THIS MOTHERF**ER.


See the last sentence of the above argument.  yes we do need more diversity in TV shows and movies, but the characters need to be 3-dimensional for real progress to be made.  The characters on Elementary are boring and speak in monotone.  When characters are token memembers of the marginalized, they are gimmicks by Straight Waspy males trying to sell an audience to Advertisers.

3) A Trans Mrs. Hudson

Elementary not only puts a new spin on an iconic character but she’s also formidable muse and fierce in her own right. And said trans character is played by talented trans actress, Candis Cayne

Again, a gimmick, not progress.  And she/he is reduced to getting paid to clean Sherlock's house.  At least the Mrs. Hudson in the BBC series is important enough to Sherlock that he throws a CIA agent out the window for her and she got to help him out smart the guy by hiding Irene's phone.  What does the Elementary Mrs. Hudson get to do?  Oh yeah, crash at Sherlock's place a couple days, then take a job cleaning his apartment because he's too lazy to do it himself and has daddy's money.  Real progress for Transgendered Americans ther.  Not!.

2) Frequent shirtless scenes featuring one Johnny Lee Miller

Let’s keep it 100 people, as far as sexy Sherlocks go, Miller’s got it.


Ok, I will concede that JLM is easy on the eyes, but for me he was a sexier Jane Austen here( Edmund Bertran and George Knightley)  On Elementary, he stands with his shoulders hunched all the time and a weird frown on his face.

Before I watched the BBC show or Elementary if someone asked me whether I found JLM or BC more attractive I would have said "JLM is yummy.  Who's Benedict Cumberbatch?"

Benedict is one of the most talented diverse actors, I've seen.  His performance as Sherlock is Electric.  He has amazing chemistry with Martin Freeman.  He was sexy as Khan as well and sexy when he did comedy playing Will Parker on Broken News.  He also has a sexy personality, especially in the comic con tape where he demonstrated how Sherlock survived with a suffed Monkey.

I still love JLM, but he's more convincing as a Regency gentleman.  The scruffy Sherlock is a different take from BC's posh, sharp dressed Sherlock; but he doesn't pull off the who scruffy thing as well as RDJ.


1) LUCY LIU
Elementary features Lucy Liu as Dr. Joan Watson. That’s right Elementary has Charlie’s Angel, O Ren Ishii herself.  For her inclusion alone, Elementary wins and your argument is invalid.

Keep your White Kahn-Artists and your hobbits, Lucy Liu trumps all.

And I for one cannot wait for season 2 of Elementary this fall.


I've loved Lucy Liu since she played Ling on Ally McBeal (a character who entertained me in the same way that BC's Sherlock does both actors pulled off making characters who can be jerks, likeable, heck Maybe she would have made the better Sherlock and JLM would have made the better Watson).
But she's completely dulled down as Joan Watson, and sounds like she's making her deductions, she sounds like she's talking about fashion.
She and JLM don't have any chemistry.  Maybe the Elementary Producers are afraid that fans might ship Sherlock and Joan if they have even an ounce of chemistry.  Well if they do, so what?  That's what fans do.  great works of fiction inspire imagination.

And We BBC fans will keep our Hobbits and Our Kahns (oh and as far as the White-Kahn issue-Ricardo Montalban was Mexican. Mexicans and Indians do not look or sound alike at all, so to say that any race will do as long as they aren't white is racist.  It's like saying all non-caucasian people look and sound alike, which isn't true.  Some of the people complaining about Benedict's casting are the same people who complained about John Cho's casting because Sulu was Japanese, not Korean.  Well Kahn is an Indian name, not a Mexican name.  But Benedict and John Cho were both awesome, so that's what matters).  Heck those things are a huge testiment to the talents of Martin Freeman and Benedict Cumberbatch.

After the Hobbit trilogy is finished, Bilbo Baggins will never be cinematically portrayed again.  Peter Jackson was so impressed with Martin Freeman's portrayal of John Watson, that he rearranged the shooting schedule for the Hobbit.  He must have also been impressed BC as he cast him as Smaug and I doubt Smaug will ever be cinematically portrayed again either.

JJ Abrams cast Benedict as Kahn after other people working on the film showed him Sherlock.  I doubt anyone of the Calibur of Peter Jackson will cast JLM or Lucy Liu based on Elementary.  Lucy Liu may get cast based on her performances in Ally McBeal, Kill Bill or Southland, but not on the dulled down Generic Joan Watson who does not stand out among other characters in crime dramas do.  The only crime drama show that has some really distinct memorable strong females is Bones.

*you* Neo-Prodigy  may keep Charlie's Angels.  While an entertaining film, it was silly based on an Aaron Spelling TV show.  The man who specialized in creating cheesy females like Joan Collin's character on Dynasty, the girls on 90210, and Phoebe Haliwell on Charmed (I actually liked the other Charmed ones).  These women were vehicles for selling clothes and make-up that would quickly go out of style.  Talk about setting feminism back 50 years.

And on a final note: go over to fan fiction.net. Elementary has 22 episodes and less than 1000 fan fiction stories.  The BBC Sherlock has 6 episodes and over 35000 stories.  Sure it's been on longer, but Elementary is a network show that reaches a wider audience.  Sure Elementary fans can pout and accuse BBC fans of having no life, but if they are reading and posting on inter fan discussion/ fan war threads, they have three fingers pointing back at themselves.

The BBC show just inspires the imagination more because it's characters and stories are deeper than generic contrived crime show plots and gimmicks in diguise of "pushing the emvelope."


Ok, Rant done.








 

Last edited by josabby (July 25, 2013 8:53 pm)


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"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

 

July 25, 2013 9:24 pm  #2


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

IMO too much wasted energy to write all this and to read all this (sorry, josabby).
I took a short look at the link you posted and I don't fully understand their reasons.
Sounds a bit deadlocked (do you say so?) or even fanatical to me.

Some like Sherlock, some like Elementary, some like both, some like none of them. And everyone should be happy.
Ordinary people - aren't they adooooorable?   


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

July 25, 2013 10:01 pm  #3


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Eh, to each his own.  The internet is full of people who feel they have to "prove" that what they like is the best thing ever.  I've seen both sets of fans say things, honestly.  I didn't like Elementary, but so what?  I know people who do, and I'm like "that's cool".  I have plenty of hobbies and interests that people think are strange or wierd, like translating manga and novels from Japanese to English...or drawing...or gardening...or watching Doctor Who...or driving all the way to Conneticut on a whim to meet Terry Pratchett...or reading classical literature for fun...etc, etc.  And that's all well and good.  I don't expect people to understand it, just accept it.

Last edited by sj4iy (July 25, 2013 10:10 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 25, 2013 10:12 pm  #4


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

I'm not alone. I've been raging about those people too, but honestly, it isn't worth the effort.
Some people just do mistake shit for quality. You could actually feel sorry for them.
If it makes you feel any better - look at this and remember that they don't have it in their show:



 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

July 25, 2013 10:16 pm  #5


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Mary Me wrote:

I'm not alone. I've been raging about those people too, but honestly, it isn't worth the effort.
Some people just do mistake shit for quality. You could actually feel sorry for them.
If it makes you feel any better - look at this and remember that they don't have it in their show:



 

Thank you, that is definately one of my favorite scenes
  this whole post was actually done during my breaks at work as a lot of things at my job that are out of my control were getting on my nerves.  I had to vent about something to prevent me from losing my temper today.

Last edited by josabby (July 25, 2013 10:33 pm)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

     Thread Starter
 

July 25, 2013 10:18 pm  #6


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

I've glanced at Elementary. Seems like a reasonable enough mainstream US TV show.

If some people want to hate on Sherlock in their process of liking it then leave them to it would be my advice.

Just don't be surprised when we all find out Irene isn't Moriarty at all, she was brainwashed...season 3 'oh no they didin' - she actually was Moriarty and lied about the brain washing...season 4 so she really wasn't Moriarty?...why did it get cancelled?

It's an enjoyable enough show I suppose, but not my cup of tea.

Bring on more Castle!

-m0r

Last edited by m0r1arty (July 25, 2013 10:18 pm)


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And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
 

July 25, 2013 10:32 pm  #7


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

I think the plot twists in elementary are fascinating. Shhh, insider knowledge. Please beware spoilers.  In season 3 we will get to know that Irene isn't Moriarty at all, it was just one of Sherlock's hallucinations. He has been drugged by Joan, who is actually Sebastian Moran and wants to destroy his life. Irene isn't a human at all. She is an android built by Joan to serve no further purpose than to spy on Sherlock. Mrs Hudson isn't a transexual - this has just been a disguise to cover her true nature as Joan's evil sibling. Both want to take over the world and they have been using Sherlock Holmes to reach their goal. At the end Joan is killing her evil sibling but it turns out that Mrs Hudson wasn't her evil sibling and she was actually her mother and Joan feels sorry at last. She moves to Russia and lives happily until she gets hanged. The End.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

July 25, 2013 10:38 pm  #8


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Well, should we do the same thing that we are upset that they are doing?  Both shows have their fans and their audience...but we shouldn't berate "Elementary" no more than they should berate "Sherlock".  I'm sure we have fans of both here, and I wouldn't want them to think that they can't talk about it.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 26, 2013 7:47 am  #9


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

We don't do that. We are not going to insult actors. I think Johnny Lee Miller is great and he's also a friend of Benedict's. Lucy Liu is also quite enjoyable on screen, though her acting is not that stunning.
But still - if I would do a list "Why I think that Sherlock is the better show" there would be far more than ten reasons. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

July 26, 2013 9:39 am  #10


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Do you know what Sherlock possibly would say to people who try to bully him; let's say on the internet or on the blog?

Delete it.
I don't care what people think. Not worth my time.

 

July 26, 2013 9:44 am  #11


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

He'd care if they thought he was stupid or wrong.

Last edited by Mary Me (July 26, 2013 9:56 am)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."

"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."

"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"



 

July 26, 2013 10:42 am  #12


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Honestly, my only issue with Elementary was that it was just your average police procedural.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 26, 2013 2:18 pm  #13


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Wow. I just read every single word and wow. Josabby and Swanpride, especially, we should give you some kind of award, just because the two of you said pretty much everything I was thinking when someone pointed out the CBS show to me.

For the record, the title of the show is completely wrong. It is from a line that people seem to believe Sherlock Holmes says in canon--which they always have wrong. Never once does he ever say "It's Elementary, my dear Watson." Never. (Trust me, I spent a long time looking for it.) He does say, "it's elementary" at least once and refers to Dr. Watson as "dear" on more than one occasion, but the words are never together. (Cue in also the deerstalker, which only appears in Silver Blaze, but that's just me being picky.) I've loved Sherlock Holmes since I was about 12 years old. I was always the bookish kid and as soon as I stuck my nose into Hounds of the Baskerville, I was hooked. It has been wonderful the last few years re-discovering these stories: and let me stand up and say that had Doyle known we would still be intelligently arguing his creations over a century later, I wonder if he would have written more!

As far as the BBC show goes, I fell head over heels with it in the first five minutes. That simply NEVER happens to me. I really spend much more time with my face buried in books than I do watching television. I found it on Netflix late one night this winter when I was having trouble sleeping. By the time they got to Angelo's and John makes the little speech about "not his date," well--that was it. I could see for myself the intelligence behind the writing.

That little gem was enough for me. All of these years I've wanted to write stories and that line, as short as it was (and the reference to all the arguments throughout the years about whether Watson and Holmes were completely platonic) was, in a word, perfect. It was only after I found myself bawling when Sherlock jumped off Bart's that I really started looking at every episode: had to have the DVDs!

This show is a TV-show. Absolutely, but like Star Trek in all of its variations (some better than others): it makes us take a second look. The writers don't give us hand outs--they make us work for the enjoyment of the show.....and hell, let's face it: isn't that what being fans of detectives is all about? Would anyone actually watch Monk or House without the mysteries? 'cause frankly, there are characters on both of those that I seriously could have lived without!

At the heart of it all, good movies, plays and TV shows are about the writing, at least to me. Sadly, as we dumb down our nation more and more every single day, writing and creativity is severly lacking. (Reality shows anyone?): to me at least, Sherlock opening the windows on a warm spring day and allowing all of the musty, moldy smells of winter to disappear. It's an adapation, but a faithful one filled with insight, intelligence, a super-wonderful-amazing cast of people who are each amazing in their own right---and any one of those people seems like "a real person" that you could run into in the grocery store or in the bookshop--and of course, bad guys, good guys and mysteries! I am lucky to have discovered it!

Last edited by crazybbcamerican (July 26, 2013 2:20 pm)


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I haven't disappeared completely, I've just been busy writing
 

July 26, 2013 3:17 pm  #14


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

"At the heart of it all, good movies, plays and TV shows are about the writing, at least to me. Sadly, as we dumb down our nation more and more every single day, writing and creativity is severly lacking. (Reality shows anyone?):"
 I agree, though I wouldn't say it's the nation as a whole, but network and studio execs who are focused on selling stories rather than telling stories.  The US is the land of great story tellers like Jim Henson, Stan Lee, and Joss Whedon.  There are a lot of other great story tellers, but the studio execs don't know how to sell those stories.  Maybe they should be fired for being crap at their jobs and making too much money.  I can dream.


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"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

     Thread Starter
 

July 26, 2013 3:35 pm  #15


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Swanpride wrote:

I guess the American audience has more of a perchant for mediocrity.

I know you probably didn't mean that the way it sounded.  Every society and culture has different forms of entertainment which we, as outsiders, don't quite understand.  I think it's perfectly okay to criticize a show, book or play for its writing, acting or production values...but I don't think it's fair to say that an entire culture enjoys "mediocrity" simply because you don't agree with those who do like the show.  9 million people (avg ratings of "Elementary") out of a country of 313 million isn't the entire country.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 26, 2013 3:50 pm  #16


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Swanpride wrote:

That's why I say "audience" and not "public" or simply "Americans", because those shows aparently have an audience big enough that they will be made. Again. And Again. I'm not suggesting that the entire audience watches the same show. I just meant that this seems to be something which lures in a lot of Americans.
And if you look at the TV programm of the US, Britain and Germany, you'll notice that there are subtly differences. Especially when it comes to the humor.

Yes, because the humor is very different in different cultures.  In America, because there are so many different cultures, you'll find a huge variety of programming and entertainment.  But I think we're insulting those people without accounting for different tastes.  Surely everyone has a guilty pleasure...something we know is not "high-end" entertainment, but we like it anyway.  I like the old 80's music.  It's not really that good, but you know why I like it?  Because I grew up listening to it, and it brings back memories.  I lived in Japan for a while, and I watched shows that most people around the world would find strange...but the Japanese enjoyed them.  Just because we don't like what someone else likes doesn't make it "mediocre"...it just makes it different from our personal tastes.  And I don't think we should criticize each other for that.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 26, 2013 5:01 pm  #17


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

As far as I can see (granted, I've never watched Elementary) it's a divide between the two nations. Each one wants to be better than the other. Sherlock might appeal more to the British because we're familiar with its concepts, and that's why Elementary might appeal more to Americans. I know that there are some who are fans of both shows, but still. 

There are a number of US shows I like, such as Friends and Heroes (and the US version of Queer As Folk, ahem), and even though they're set in the US and some aspects are not familiar to me I still love them. Just like how I enjoy British shows like our version of Being Human, Robin Hood (the one with Jonas Armstrong) and others. I don't really discriminate between shows based on where they were made, I just like anything that's good


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Dean - "I'm not happy about it. But I got to move on. So I'm gonna keep doing what we do...while I still can. And I'd like you to be there with me."

Sam - "I'm your brother, Dean, if you ever need to talk about anything with anybody, you got someone right here next to you."


 

July 26, 2013 5:42 pm  #18


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Swanpride wrote:

There is a difference between liking something and the quality of something. For example the Sherlock Holmes movies...I don't like them. But they are not mediocre. They are well made, and my biggest critic is that they are too much action and not enough deduction for a Sherlock Holmes adaptation.

And for the 80's is the same true as for every other music era: There were songs which are classics and remain unforgotten and a lot of others which are not.

And if a Japanese show tries to do something which I consider strange, than it either does it well or it does it mediocre. I will find both strange, but with enough knowledge about the subject matter, I would be able to figure out which one is the good show.

For example, when the Nostalgia Critic rips into old movies, he doesn't do it because he doesn't like them, but because he thinks they are genuinly badly made.

There are objective parameters on which you can measure the quality of a show. Naturally nobody is ever totally objective in the end, but when I analyse a show or a movie it's based on much more than just on "I like" or "I don't like". I have in the past given movies positive critics I genuily don't like (for example Lord of the Rings), and I haven give negative critics to some I really like, but consider more a guilty pleasure (the Whitehead Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson series is an example - I would buy the DVD's in a heartbeat, but I would never deny that the show is campy as hell).

Even if you think it's genuinely bad, it doesn't mean that the people who watch it are dumb- it just appeals to them, and not to you.  They have found something interesting in something you haven't.  And like I said...I'm all for criticizing a show on its own merits...but I refuse to criticize someone for watching it.  And I definitely won't judge an entire population on a show that 2% of the population watches (which, btw, means that it's not a very successful show since it's on network television and can't garner more than that).

Last edited by sj4iy (July 26, 2013 5:43 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 26, 2013 6:26 pm  #19


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

This is what bothers me:

"I only brought it up because I think it's fairly notable that Elementary is made for the American audience. It's exactly what is usually succesful over there, hits all the right notes."

Saying that a show is "made for the American audience" is generalizing.  It's made for a target demographic...not for a target "culture".  But Elementary has NOT actually been successful.  9 million viewers for network programming in prime time is very lackluster.  So it apparently has not hit the right notes.  It was an experiment to see if CBS could ride on the popularity of the Sherlock Holmes' boom, and it's not attracting the audience they hoped it would.

However, there have been great American adaptations of Sherlock Holmes- "House" and "Monk", amongst others.

Last edited by sj4iy (July 26, 2013 6:30 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

July 26, 2013 6:56 pm  #20


Re: Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

Swanpride wrote:

Okay, I try again to explain: What I meant from the beginning is that Elementary is made for the standart CBS viewer. And the standart CBS viewer is American. Which might explain why the show does even worse in foreign countries, not only in Britain, where naturally the love for Sherlock is very strong, but also in Germany, where the mayority of the audience most likely didn't even read about the fuss around the two shows. Because it's made for a special target group which consists of people living in America, and there are cultural difference between different countries. And it hit the notes well enough that it got a second season, despite being fairly mediocre.

House and Monk are both great shows (or at least they were during the first seasons, I watched neither of them until the end), but if those characters were named Sherlock Holmes, I would cry fool play, too. They are great reimaginings, or hommages, but not great adaptations.

They were adaptations, no homages, "House" most of all.  An 'homage' simply honors someone or something.  "House" was Sherlock Holmes adapted as a doctor and set in modern day.  The character was Holmes...he simply had a different job and different setting.  His personality was the same, his methods were the same.  An 'homage' would be Moriarty walking up the steps in The Reichenbach Fall while Sherlock plays the violin...which was a scene in an old Sherlock movie.

Last edited by sj4iy (July 26, 2013 6:56 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

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